Escaping Fundamentalism and Speaking Out - Part 2

Part 2 of my interview with Andrew Pledger. This episode will focus on Andrew's experience with conversion therapy,  how he found support exiting fundamentalism, his expulsion from BJU,  and the work he's doing healing and speaking out. Andrew was raised in a fundamentalist Christian cult and realized in his youth that he was gay. He attended Bob Jones University, which is a fundamentalist Christian college with a chilling history of abuse. While there, Andrew was bullied, harassed, tailed by college employees, and subjected to conversion therapy. In his junior year Andrew was expelled from BJU for publicly denouncing fundamentalism. Andrew is healing and working hard to spread awareness of religious abuse. His new podcast, "Surviving Bob Jones University: A Christian Cult" is exposing BJU's racist and abusive legacy. Andrew's story is of learning to honor your inner voice and follow your intuition, even when everything and everyone around you is telling you it's wrong.

Andrew's Website: https://andrewpledger.mypixieset.com/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/4ndrewpledger/
Links: https://andrewpledger.mypixieset.com/links

Andrew's Podcasts-

Surviving Bob Jones University: A Christian Cult: https://open.spotify.com/show/6zpFerrBjOuNACq1oklIU6
Speaking Up: Surviving Religions and Cults: https://shows.acast.com/speaking-up-with-andrew-pledger

Andrew's Interview with Josh Harris
https://youtu.be/qRwx4OoS2aM?si=Qtv8ifHW5vICIB9W

The Trevor Project - Crisis Hotline for LGBTQ+ youth:
https://www.thetrevorproject.org/get-help/

Conversion Therapy
https://www.hrc.org/resources/the-lies-and-dangers-of-reparative-therapy

Pattern of Narcissistic Abuse
https://www.mindbodygreen.com/articles/narcissistic-relationship-pattern

Hypnotherapy for Trauma
https://psychcentral.com/health/hypnotherapy-trauma#hypnotherapy-for-treating-trauma

IndoctriNation Podcast
https://www.podpage.com/indoctrination/

Deconstruction Reddit Threads
https://www.reddit.com/r/FundieSnarkUncensored/

https://www.reddit.com/r/cultsurvivors/?xpromo_edp=enabled

Finding OK website: https://www.finding-ok.com/

Become a Patreon member!
https://www.patreon.com/HecateFindingOK

Support the Show: https://www.finding-ok.com/support/

Hecate's Links: https://linktr.ee/FindingOK

Letters for the Fire: https://www.finding-ok.com/blog/letters-for-the-fire-season-5/

Thank you so much for listening. BLM. Take care of yourself <3

Transcript

Andrew Part2

[00:00:00] Andrew: We were always told, it is always your fault. We're never at fault. The teachings are never at fault. The system is never at fault. It's you. So to have someone to say, no, the system is broken. The system is toxic. The system is abusive. That was, I think, powerful.

[00:00:29] Hecate: Hi there. Thank you so much for joining me. I'm Hecate and this is Finding OK, a healing podcast for survivors of sexual assault and any and all abuse. When survivors share, we share strength. You are not alone. In today's episode, I'll be sharing Part 2 of my interview with Andrew Pledger. If you haven't listened to Part 1, I highly suggest that you do that.

If you haven't, I'm not entirely sure what you're doing here, but you can make your own life choices. I believe in you! Andrew Pledger is [00:01:00] a podcaster and a survivor of religious abuse who is doing powerful deconstruction work, both personally, and in the world. Andrew was expelled from Bob Jones University for publicly denouncing fundamentalism and coming out as gay.

By the time this airs, Andrew's new podcast will be available. It's called "Surviving Bob Jones University, A Christian Cult". His podcast is exposing BJU and giving voice to its survivors. I hope you go check it out. There are links in episode notes. I've been listening to it, and I'm learning so much. It's incredible the amount of work that he's done compiling all this history.

Today's episode will focus on Andrew's experience with conversion therapy, how he found support in exiting fundamentalism, his expulsion from BJU, and the work he's doing healing and speaking out. Before we continue, if you enjoy the podcast, please consider [00:02:00] supporting my work by becoming a Patreon member.

Tiers start as low as $1 a month, and membership at any level changes my life. Tier 3 and 4 patrons gain access to a new supplemental patron podcast called Finding More, and Tier 4 patrons get access to video episodes of both Finding OK and Finding More. You could be watching this right now! Click the link in episode notes to learn more about membership benefits.

Finding OK is funded entirely by the generosity of patrons and listeners like you. Thank you. And now it's time for...

Trigger and content warnings for this episode include the following: trauma, child abuse, religious abuse, cults, suicide, homophobia, conversion therapy, and the pandemic. [00:03:00] Please check in with yourself and make sure you're all right to continue.

[00:03:13] Andrew: And it was really hard when COVID 19 happened, the pandemic, because that happened while I was at Bob Jones. That was early 2020. Yeah. 

[00:03:22] Hecate: I did not put that timeline together. Oh my gosh. So you experienced lockdown at Bob Jones University. What was that like? 

[00:03:32] Andrew: Oof. So what happened was early 2020, there's all this talk in the news and fear around, you know, this virus spreading.

And then I heard rumors the school was going to shut down temporarily and send us all home to do it virtually because they had to. Because if they weren't forced to, you know, the government telling people, I don't think they would have done it. But basically hearing these rumors, and then, you know, conversing with that family about [00:04:00] it, um, they're like, yeah, they're like, Bob Jones is most probably, they're probably going to shut down soon.

And it was just so insane to me because hearing in the news that rushed, like, I remember when restaurants all across the U. S. shut down, I was like, what? I'm like, what is happening? And then we are sent to chapel, and I think I can't remember if we did or not. Maybe we got an email that there's a special kind of announcement or things that need to be covered in chapel that day.

But I feel like there's some kind of maybe forewarning. I can't remember 100%. But I remember getting to chapel and, you know, the president, when I was there with Steve Pettit, and I remember him announcing that we are closing the school down on campus, we're going to be changing to virtual to finish off this spring semester.

So that would be like from March to early May, we're going to go home, finish that semester online. And he's like, yeah, and we're canceling graduation. Yeah, students are not walking this year. And they're like, when all of this, [00:05:00] like, we don't know what's going to happen with this pandemic, so we don't know if that will ever happen or how long that will be down the road.

And it was like, really, there were mixed feelings with that because, yes, I was in this high control environment, a lot of harm, but also I found my safe space outside of it in Greenville with that family. And here we are, pandemic. We're all going in lockdown, separating, and then here I am going into an unaffirming environment with my parents, having to finish school, you know, under the control of my parents.

It was not, not an ideal situation at all, and I think, you know, the pandemic affected everyone, but I think something people don't talk about a lot is how many queer people had to, like, be forced into, like, unaffirming and unsafe environments. And it was just so hard on that aspect of it. And so, thankfully, the IFB cult that I grew up in, they, they were forced to shut down.

So [00:06:00] when I got back, there was no church to attend. Of course, they were doing it virtually. They were still doing the pastor in an empty auditorium, talking to a camera. 

[00:06:12] Hecate: Were you forced to attend those, those virtual sermons with your family? 

[00:06:15] Andrew: When they did start back, yes. Yeah, I was. This is so annoying. And I remember...

The nice part about it was I was like, okay, like I don't have all the Bob Jones activities, but they also did chapel virtually. And I remember my mom asking, Oh, aren't they having virtual chapel during this time? And I was like, yes, but I really need to work on schoolwork. And she was like, and then she just put up chapel on her phone to turn it up all the way and then set the phone beside me and I was just like, okay. 

[00:06:48] Hecate: Thanks Mom! 

[00:06:49] Andrew: I was like, I'm like, Oh, like, please stop because in my parents view, any opportunity to miss church,

was of Satan. That [00:07:00] was Satan trying to get you to miss church. That's wanting to miss you, that one message that God's going to convict you or enlighten you or give you this inspiration of some kind. So yeah, God's not going to do it all the weeks you constantly go to church. It's going to be the one week that you miss that God's going to have this message, this inspiration that he's going to lay on your heart or convict you.

That's just how it was in their mind. Any opportunity to miss religious activities that was of Satan. And so I understood like in my mind, I'm like. I was like, I know why she's doing this and it's so annoying and I don't agree with this, but whatever. 

[00:07:33] Hecate: You had talked earlier about feeling frustration or anger and that being kind of like an impetus for exacting change in your life.

Hearing you being stuck at BJU, and then finally finding community at this church, and then with this family, and then having that taken away from you from the pandemic, and being forced to return home, and being forced to once again listen to this church that you had [00:08:00] finally escaped, was there a level of frustration that ended up moving you forward at all.

[00:08:07] Andrew: Yeah, I mean, at that point, I couldn't express that, I guess, to my parents. But at that point, I knew that I was had enough. I wanted nothing to do with the I. F. B. or fundamentalist Christianity. And it's really hard when you finally experience a healthy environment, and then you're forced back into the unhealthy environment.

So that was really hard because then I think for me, which I'm still dealing with, is that grieving process of the life that I didn't have. The life that I could have had in a healthy environment, but didn't have. The things I could have experienced, but didn't. And. You know, going forward, you know, there was so much uncertainty in the pandemic and another aspect of the pandemic was it really [00:09:00] triggered rapture anxiety for me, because whenever any kind of catastrophe happens or something extreme in politics or social issues, the church just latches on to it and is like sign of end times, end times are coming near. This is God's judgment.

And, you know, and I'm trying to remember, but In the Bible, it had like, talked about famines, diseases, or whatever, earthquakes, all these different natural disasters that would happen that would be, oh, this is a sign that the end times are coming soon. But the belief of my, the IFB is that before all these different things happen.

Like, when the tribulation or end times officially start, all of us would be raptured, we would be gone, we wouldn't experience this, but there would be horrible things that would happen to signal that, oh yeah, Jesus is gonna come soon, and then all these really terrible, awful things are gonna happen, and everyone left behind, they are hopeless, [00:10:00] and they will suffer for eternity and deal with all this war, famine, and diseases. So, it was all this disruption in the world was, in their eyes, a sign that, oh, this is a sign that Jesus is about to come back and then the actual hell is really gonna break loose on everyone else except us. 

[00:10:19] Hecate: That must have been incredibly difficult to like, cuz you're already in the middle of a global pandemic and like dealing with the very big real feelings that we all had trying to navigate that global event, um, a lot of us in, in isolation and then to have that anxiety put on top of it of like, wow, as bad as, and, and as terrifying as this is, it's gonna get a lot worse!

Like, how did you navigate that or manage 

that? 

[00:10:53] Andrew: Yeah. And I think it was hard at that point because I had done a little bit of like deconstructing and at that point [00:11:00] there was part of me that was like, I don't believe in that rapture, but that still there's that part of me indoctrinated that like still has that association with those events and those beliefs.

It was just... I think what it made me want to do, which I think it happens in a lot of these environments, is cling to certainty, to maybe like reconvert, dedicate my life to like suppress that fear so I know that, Oh, I'm checked. I'm good. I'm not going to be in a rapture, but I didn't do that at that point.

I was like, no, I'm like, I just don't want to get in that again. And so I just, I'm trying to remember really how I dealt with it. I think how I, now looking back, that's when I really started, when the pandemic happened, CBD was my friend. That was my friend. So much. 

[00:11:53] Hecate: Love that! 

[00:11:54] Andrew: I just, a lot of CBD, then that looking back, oh. 

[00:11:58] Hecate: Where did, where 

did you find it [00:12:00] while you were with your family?

Was it? Cause I, I assumed that that would be frowned upon... 

[00:12:04] Andrew: Oh, yeah. Yeah. So I, I think I remember I would get it off of Amazon. I think. That's what I would do and, you know, I would get the, quickly get the package before they saw that it came and then like run to my room and put it in my little hiding place.

Um, but that was so helpful. It really did help me with a lot with anxiety during all of that. Um, and yeah, so. 

[00:12:30] Hecate: I'm glad that you were 

able to access that. To just like have some some medicine or some kind 

of relief. 

[00:12:37] Andrew: Yeah. And then that summer, though, that was when the depression would come back for me.

That's when it got really bad because I think CBD was like, yes, it helped with symptoms, but like. Nothing was going to like, that's not going to heal my trauma that I wasn't even like aware of at that point. By this time, this was like the third, I think, depressive episode that I had had in my life. I think it was like the [00:13:00] summer, that was 2020, wasn't it?

Wow. Yeah. Summer of 2020. Yeah. Wait, wait, wait. So wait, wait. Sorry. I'm trying to think of the timeline in my head. We were sent home. Yeah. So it was a summer, 2020. 

[00:13:12] Hecate: It's a blur for everyone else as well. Don't worry. Like the last three years have just been, uh, time has been very wibbly wobbly for us all.. 

[00:13:22] Andrew: And so, yeah, I'm struggling with depression, trying to hide it and long story short, you know, in the past, I tried to get medication for depression, but my parents hadn't wouldn't let me.

And then, but now at this point, and I'm experiencing this, I convinced my parents to let me. And so that did help deal with the symptoms. Again, it wasn't going to heal my trauma, but it helped me like stay afloat. It was like my life raft, I guess you would say, to stay afloat in that time. And so, you know, with updates of Bob Jones, you know, we're still in a major global pandemic.

They were going to meet back [00:14:00] on school. School was going to be back on session. We're all going to be back on campus that fall of 2020, you know, there are going to be protocols in place to try to mitigate the spread of Covid. And so here I am struggling still so much with depression. And then going back into this environment. 

[00:14:20] Hecate: Yeah. 

[00:14:20] Andrew: That was, triggered so much still.

And so I was just, and again, like, I went there and I didn't tell anyone I was on medication. Like, that was so frowned upon at Bob Jones University people being on medication for mental health issues. So I never told anyone that I was on that, you know, I went back and they had all these different protocols.

But there were still things that were just not helpful. We still met in a massive auditorium of over 2,500 students, all in one room. Oh, but we were wearing a mask and we were sitting every other seat, which is two feet apart, and the CDC recommended six feet apart. So here we are. Oh, like, you know, we feel good because we're following these [00:15:00] protocols.

But it's like, what? Like, I'm sorry. We're all in like a tin can, over 2, 500, 000 of us in the beginning of the semester, what are y'all thinking? What are y'all doing? And it was required, like we were forced to never stay there and being like, I'm just, no, this is not a smart way to do this. And they should have just streamlined a bunch of virtual things.

But I think they, they wanted to come back on campus because they were afraid that if they didn't, the enrollment would maybe lower. And the school would permanently shut down. And I think they were trying to avoid that. But yeah, so we're back and like, we're going through all these orientations of like, oh yeah, these are the procedures we're doing to protect us from COVID as we're all in a room together..

These are all the protocols we're going to do. 

[00:15:49] Hecate: Welcome 

to the super spreader event so we can talk about how we're not going to be a super spreaders! 

[00:15:54] Andrew: Yes! 

[00:15:55] Hecate: Thank you for attending. It is mandatory. 

Awesome. 

[00:15:59] Andrew: [00:16:00] And there was this app we had to download where we would check, basically, we'd have to check list of symptoms we had to pass.

And if we had any symptoms, we could not go to class or go to anything. We had to get tested. And at that time, they did not have tests on campus. You had to go to a nearby hospital to get a test. So it was not very convenient. They did not make it easy for students to get tested at all. And so I remember, you know, we're doing all of these different things and yet the same time it's like, I don't think any of this is really helping because we're still very close to each other and doing all these things.

And, oh, my God. Yeah. And so that semester there was obviously there were like, major rises in Covid on campus. And there were sometimes it would be like, really high. And they're like, all right. No one. And here's the thing again, they were like, no one can go to any church. We're doing campus church. And I'm like, what are y'all thinking?

Okay. Don't go in these churches and getting [00:17:00] it, but still again, meeting in a massive room for campus church. Yeah. 

[00:17:04] Hecate: We're still doing the...Okay. 

[00:17:05] Andrew: So I was just like, you're so dumb, but why are y'all doing this? Like, this doesn't make any sense at all. But of course, that indoctrination, like, it had to happen. It was so important. 

[00:17:17] Hecate: Well, and you've got, like, this high control group is, is, like, completely unwilling to let go of, you know, these main methods of control.

Because if you let it slip for too long, Yeah. 

[00:17:28] Andrew: That slippery slope. Oof. 

[00:17:29] Hecate: You do lose control of, of your, your 

members. 

[00:17:33] Andrew: Yes. And so I just remember doing that and they did that for like a couple of weeks. Campus church is required. And then they're like, all right, numbers are down. Go back outside to your church.

And I was just like, whatever. And of course I've been, I got COVID that semester. 

[00:17:52] Hecate: Oh, I'm sorry. 

[00:17:53] Andrew: and yeah, you were quarantined in their quarantine dorm in a dorm just for sick people. [00:18:00] And because in the past, they had 5000 students, but by the time I got there in 2018, they had. I think 25, 2600. So their attendance at their school had been cut in half basically.

So they had a whole dorm that like no one was occupying except maybe like a few grad students on the first level. So the second and third level of this dorm just quarantine. And of course they would freak out because if numbers got high, they only had so many spaces for sick people. So that, that's what made them so scared because they're like, what are they,

you know, if they, if you got sick and you, and it was above that limit, I guess they would just force you to go home, I guess? That was probably what they would do. They would force you to go back to your home and then wait that out. I don't know if they got to that point, but yeah, so I, I got COVID. 

[00:18:49] Hecate: That must've 

been really scary to be moved into the quarantine dorm.

[00:18:54] Andrew: I mean, yeah, it, it was, but then again, I was kind of excited. Because I [00:19:00] knew that I was not going to be subjected to any of the control. I was going to be, I think at that time, I think that I had 10 days to be in this dorm to like recover and not be contagious anymore. And I was like, Oh, I don't have to hide from not going to church.

I don't have to go to discipleship groups. I don't have to go to chapel. I don't have to go to society. You know, I don't have to go to these classes and different things. It was like a vacation in a sense, just kind of sad, um, but it 

was. 

[00:19:30] Hecate: That's kind of a moment when you like that you're a little bit glad to be sick, just kind of realize like, well, this can't be a great 

thing.

[00:19:40] Andrew: Yes. And it was so eyeopening because I had never had that amount of time to have a break from all of it. So I was definitely noticing like my mind and body and how I was reacting to that break from all the busyness of all the activities of things and all like the [00:20:00] pressures and the messages. And I just remember standing at the window of the dormitory, just watching everyone going along with their schedule, just walking all these different sidewalks and things, like little ants following each other, doing whatever they do, conforming, and just thinking and being like, wondering, like, I wonder if everyone on this campus could have a break from all of this.

I wonder what would change. Yeah, it was a nice break. And once I got out, I was like, all right, back to reality. Here we go. And again, during this time, I was separated from that family because they had someone who, um, was highly compromised, highly compromised immune system. So I could not have contact with them.

And obviously I did not like, I was in an environment where we were getting sick. Everyone's was getting sick. So I was like, okay, like, I have to, uh, well, whenever this pandemic ends, I don't know. We'll see them again. And they were really great because I was texting them during this time when I was in this dorm and they [00:21:00] were, and I was like, I'm like the food, like, once I started getting my taste back, I was like, the food is so awful. And they were so nice to, cause there was staff at the bottom of the dorm.

Um, and they. Yeah. Stopped by and gave them food to give to me because the food was so bad. It was so sweet. 

[00:21:17] Hecate: That's so sweet. 

[00:21:18] Andrew: Yeah. And then I had a friend, I was like, Hey, like, can you go get something from Chick fil A for me? Cause I'm so tired. And they would like, they got me something from there.

Cause I was like, I cannot. Cause like lunch was just like a ham sandwich with a bag of chips and like a little, like, I don't know, like raisin cookie or something, and it was just not good. And then, you know, the, the meals they had, they were bad. Anyway, the organization that provided meals or catered or whatever, they were a company that also catered to prison.

Like we were literally eating, eating prison food. Um, 

[00:21:54] Hecate: Gotcha, okay. 

[00:21:56] Andrew: Yeah. 

[00:21:56] Hecate: Yeah. 

[00:21:58] Andrew: So there's that, do with that [00:22:00] what you will. And, you know, I got out and at that point, before I had gone into quarantine, I did have a bit of a mental health crisis and ended up meeting shortly with a biblical counselor because there were no other options.

It was a major crisis and this person ended up blaming and shaming me for a lot of things that I went through. And, um, and also I came out to the closet to them, which is hard, but I shockingly did not get kicked out at that point because. I guess I hadn't been, I didn't, I didn't confess to say like, Oh, I, I had sex, blah, blah, blah, because you were not allowed to have sex outside of marriage.

Like that was another, like no sex, no physical contact of any romantic level, and even just friendly level. Anyways, they really demonized human touch. They saw it as a gateway to sex. Yeah. 

[00:22:51] Hecate: Yeah. 

Strong purity culture. Lovely. 

[00:22:54] Andrew: Yes. Yes. And you know. You know, after I met with him, that was [00:23:00] anyways, soon once I revealed to him that like, I don't maybe believe any of this anymore.

I think this is harmful. He then stopped meeting with me. He's like, yeah, as a biblical counselor, we can't meet with people who don't believe. So he's like, Oh, mental health crisis. Oh, I'm not meeting with you anymore. Not checking up on you, whatever. So there was that. And it was when I went into quarantine, he had given me this book.

He had told me he was going to give me, and it was basically a story about this ex gay who was saved from homosexuality. And that was one of the things that I read while I was in, during this time. 

[00:23:33] Hecate: Awesome! 

[00:23:34] Andrew: So great. And like, it was a quick read, honestly. And a lot of it, like, there were some things I skimmed through, I was like, oh, whatever.

And it again, in the end is the person like, Oh, I'm straight, but also I struggle with same sex attraction. It's like, okay, you haven't really changed. You're just repressing. 

[00:23:48] Hecate: Funny how that works. Yeah. 

[00:23:49] Andrew: Yeah. So anyway, so there was that. And once I got out, he didn't really contact me after that, but it was the last semester of my junior year.

I ended up having, [00:24:00] I'm just going to say like a reconversion experience. And thankfully I was able to recognize it very shortly after as, Oh, I was emotionally manipulated. This is psychological manipulation because what I realized from the IFB and from fundamentalism, a lot of their tactics resemble a narcissistic abusive relationship.

A lot of like, they'll show you love at certain times or like, or love bombing in the beginning, and then they'll just switch. And then it's all degrading, you're awful, blah, blah, blah. And then you do better and they go back to love. And then it's like, hate, and then it cycles. So you were degraded so much in that environment and made to feel worthless.

But there were also times where out of nowhere, it's like, Oh, you are so loved. You are so special. God has a wonderful plan for you. It's so confusing and very emotionally manipulative. And so it got me at a point where, you know, I was so degraded and put down, but then it switched to the just overwhelming feeling of being loved and being special.

It just, it got me and got [00:25:00] me to this emotional high, honestly, but it faded very quickly and I was able to see what it was. I was like, that was emotional manipulation and I'm not going along with this. This is not the Holy Spirit like they talk about, this is just emotions. And, you know, I think... 

[00:25:15] Hecate: How long did 

that last?

How long, like, did that like reconversion experience kind of go 

for you? 

[00:25:22] Andrew: A few, a few days. That's how long that lasted. 

[00:25:24] Hecate: Okay. 

[00:25:25] Andrew: A few days. 

[00:25:26] Hecate: I'm so glad that you mentioned it because like, I think like a lot of people who maybe exit, like, you know, could, you know, have, have some feelings about, about that. And I think that's very normal.

And I love the observation about it having that similarity to the, you know, the abuse, the narcissistic abuse pattern. It's so true. 

[00:25:46] Andrew: Yes. And so I was thankful that I was able to recognize that, but unfortunately I had told that person, like the day that happened, I got saved, but then a few days later. You know, I was starting to realize this was [00:26:00] emotional manipulation.

This wasn't genuine. And I didn't know, I'm like, I don't know if this can actually be a genuine thing. I think this is all emotional manipulation. And that's what I started to really start thinking. But I didn't want to tell this person this, and he wanted to start meeting with me. And he's like, Oh, okay.

He's like, now that you're saved, he's like, I really want to start discipling you. And then. that will shift into changing your sexuality. 

[00:26:24] Hecate: What does discipling you entail? 

[00:26:28] Andrew: That's a good question. Discipleship is usually a one on one mentorship type thing with a spiritual authority guiding a Christian through their spiritual walk and also digging through their beliefs and really theology, and what it entailed was I think that was my second semester junior year when that started. And honestly, it was kind of good for me at first because I genuinely I wanted to learn more about like theology again it's Bob [00:27:00] Jones theology, but growing up and even at Bob Jones, I heard so many sermons of like, don't do this, don't do that.

And it wasn't like deep theologically. And you know, yes, I, I was still required to go to Bible classes, which are part of the curriculum and that was theological based, but I just had never had this kind of like, let's do this concisely one on one with a person. And I really wanted to learn what it was all about.

And so basically this was just him telling me what Bob Jones theology was, and he would just. Go cherry pick throughout scriptures to create the worldview, Christian worldview that was taught through Bob Jones. And I think one thing that he was trying to do was repair this negative view of God that I had. I think that because I had told him about that like in my mind God was really an abusive person, a narcissistic abuser really and so he was trying to repair that but he was ignoring a lot of the harmful things in [00:28:00] scripture that God does in the Old Testament and other places just completely ignores that and jumps between things and I knew what he was doing and I don't, I don't think he knew what he was doing.

I think he believed that this was the truth and this was the right approach with theology. But I saw he was cherry picking and trying to like reconstruct my view of God and you know, him saying this, oh, yeah, this is the truth, this is who God really is. And anyone who tells you who God is, that is such a red flag.

Like that is such a red flag. And meeting with him, he just stifled me trying to reconstruct my view of God. And then he wanted to change it into like conversion therapy, basically very quickly. I think it was anyways, it shouldn't have happened at all, but it was just insane to me how like he thought he could change my trauma or fix my trauma in like so few sessions.

Like he wasn't trauma informed at all, biblical counselors are not. So once it changed into conversion therapy, [00:29:00] like, I don't even remember the first session. I just disassociated, like I remember going in the room and leaving the room, but I don't remember anything that was said or anything that happened in it.

And I remember the feelings of leaving though, it was just feeling that weight on my chest, that anxiety, that shame, that internalized homophobia, the suicidal thoughts starting to come back and I'm like, this isn't healthy and there's a part of me, my intuition and or the self was like, you know, you need to stop this.

This is unhealthy. This is not good for you. So I ended it, I ended that relationship. He tried to get me to come back, but I would not. And at that, after that point, I decided that I was going to leave Christianity entirely because it was just in my journey of trying to reconstruct it. I was like, why is this even worth it?

And also realizing that I can be a good person and do good outside of this. 

[00:29:53] Hecate: Yeah. 

[00:29:54] Andrew: And I'd also been deconstructing that I, I still struggle with it. [00:30:00] Because of the indoctrination, but the ideas of heaven and hell, something that I was like, you know what? I'm like, without that, without that fear tactic, I don't think I have to conform to that,

this fundamentalist approach. And so that summer, right before I entered my senior year, I just, there's three months in the summer. I de converted. I just dove in de conversion reading, exposing myself to all this information to debunk all these beliefs they had told me. So here I am senior year coming back to Bob Jones University, not a Christian anymore and having, and also digging into religious trauma. That was such a big pivotal moment for me was discovering the term religious trauma because it put a label to what all the pain I was experiencing from that environment and from those teachings.

And I'm going into this environment feeling. I was really, when I walked on Bob Jones campus, I was, it was a feeling of just like. I was so disillusioned, I guess you [00:31:00] would say. The curtain had been pulled back, um, the rose colored glasses, I mean they weren't really rose colored glasses because it wasn't great, I don't know what to say.

The wool had been pulled, I guess you would say, that's a better term, the wool had been pulled from my eyes and I was like, oh my gosh. And it was this feeling of like, I shouldn't be here anymore. And I can, truly knowing having made a decision that I don't want to be in this environment a hundred percent and I'm leaving this religion, I was like, ugh, and it was just a strange feeling.

And that semester, you know, I was a visual art student and I focused in photography. So I started working on a photo series that really documented my journey of religious trauma. And it was really healing for me. It was very painful to make, but it was very healing for me to start like, working through that.

And at that point, I was almost done with the first draft of my memoir. So I had already chronologically like, gotten a lot of things in my mind in order, and also a lot of the [00:32:00] feelings from that. And so that really was a framework to help me make that series. And it ended up being 15, I think 15 photos in total. Maybe 12, 12 or 15, something like that.

And I made this secretly at Bob Jones. When I decided that I was going to publish it to the world and use it as a catalyst to tell my story of my experiences to break that silence. It was just, you know, quite a lot happened because, you know, at 17 years old I decided to leave the I F B but couldn't. And here I am about to turn 22.

I had left the faith completely and now made this series about religious trauma, share it with the whole world. And I was like, oh, I'm like this kind of nerve wracking. But I decided that I wanted to have a platform that could reach people who really needed it. So I connected with this author, his name is Josh Harris, [00:33:00] and he wrote this book in the 90s, I think it was called I Kissed Dating Goodbye.

And it was a big influence on the purity culture movement and in evangelicalism and fundamentalism, and it sold over a million copies worldwide, this book, and he wrote this, I think, when he was 20 or 21. This 21, 20, 21 year old wrote to the world, this is how you do relationships, and yeah, this book was based in the purity culture movement, but it was in like, I think, 2017 or 2018.

He, like, denounced his book apologized for the harm that it had caused in its teachings and then publicly left Christianity. And then, like, he did his own Ted Talk about it and I think like a major TV network did an sit down interview and like documentary with him about it, his book and the influence and his journey out of Christianity.

So it was just, it was a big deal in Christian circles and I remember when it [00:34:00] happened. Yeah. It was just, everyone was so upset and I remember secretly deep down inside being like, I'm like, go Josh. And he did a whole TED Talk too on something about like, you know, the power of admitting when you're wrong and I was just like, Oh, my gosh.

I'm like, all these leaders throughout all these movements have caused so much harm and they haven't apologized for it. They've covered it up or they they stick to their toxic teachings, but he's openly apologized for it and denounced it. And then also became LGBTQ affirming and apologized for his stances towards that before and the harm he caused in that area was like, it was just insane to me and inspiring.

And so once he kind of did that, he began kind of becoming like, I guess you would say like a deconstruction creator. Just talking about his deconstruction journey and engaging in different deconstruction topics. And he would interview people weekly on his Instagram live. And I reached out to him and I was like, Hey, like I have a story.

I have this photo series [00:35:00] and could I come on? And he agreed. And so that was the first time that like I would publicly tell my story was live on Instagram, on his page. 

[00:35:09] Hecate: That's incredible. 

[00:35:10] Andrew: And it was quite a risk, but like there was a part of me, that intuition that I had connected to, or this, you know, my higher self or the self that knew, despite the uncertainty with the outcome of that, the risk of that speaking up, I knew that everything was going to be okay.

And it didn't make sense. It didn't make logical sense, but I knew deep down a part of me knew that everything was going to work out the way that it was supposed to. I didn't know how, but there was a part of me that knew that. So I did it. It's public. I put it on my Instagram. The interview is on my Instagram and whatever.

And I did 

I'm 

[00:35:49] Hecate: gonna link 

it. Yeah. Make sure that it's an episode notes. So people can go check it 

out. 

[00:35:52] Andrew: I don't know if I sent that to you, so I'll send you the link to that, but 

[00:35:55] Hecate: please, yeah. 

[00:35:56] Andrew: But yeah, so I did it, and I did block a lot of people on Instagram from Bob [00:36:00] Jones just to try to mitigate issues with that, but it did not work, and someone ended up seeing it, and it ended up, which I did not expect, it spread like wildfire on Bob Jones campus.

And I think it was because it's such a rare thing for anyone in that environment to publicly speak out against that culture, fundamentalist Christianity, it's harmful teachings, and even admitting that this can cause trauma, this can cause harm, because we were always told, it is always your fault.

We're never at fault. The teachings are never at fault. The system is never at fault. It's you. So to have someone to say, no, this system is broken. This system is toxic. This system is abusive. That was, I think, powerful for a lot of people. And they connected with that. And a lot of people I think connected also because they couldn't speak up about it.

And I think it validated their own experiences too, and they saw themselves in me and my story. But yeah, once that happened, it was like two weeks later after the interview, I could [00:37:00] tell that people knew because I would just walk into a room or walk into the dining area and like people would stare at me and whisper and I'm like, oh shit.

I was like, oh no, like this is, oof, this is, so yeah, my anxiety levels are way up during that. But two weeks later, I was like, I've heard nothing and I was like, okay, I'm like, I guess I'm going to finish my last semester at Bob Jones University and graduate from Bob Jones. I was in my dorm room one night and I hear a knock and my dorm supervisor, you know, comes in and he didn't even know who I was.

He's like, you're Andrew Pledger, right? And I'm like, yes. And he was like, I need you to come downstairs in my office. He's like, some staff member is going to come and meet with us. And I was just taking it back. I didn't get an email. I didn't get any kind of notification. They made this meeting without telling me at all and then come to my room and demand that I come to the meeting.

I'm just like, whatever. And I was confused because I'm like, how would they know I would be in the room at that time? And what if they made the meeting and I [00:38:00] wasn't there? Like, I don't know. It was just strange. Maybe they, maybe they watched me and my schedule. It wouldn't surprise me.

[00:38:04] Hecate: I 

was going to say like, they, they do have a history of stalking you.

[00:38:08] Andrew: They do. 

Yeah, they do. I'm sure they thought, oh yeah, he'll be in his room. So yeah, I, so I go into this room and what happens when you meet with these leaders before you get in trouble, they're super nice at first, they do small talk and then they will flip a switch to, all right, you know, let's get down to business and get to why we're really here.

But as we were waiting on these two leaders, another thing to note was there was a major snow storm that happened because this was in January of 2022 and there was like four inches I think of snow on the ground, which is not common in Greenville, South Carolina. And so anyway, so they, they were having to get there.

And one of the people that was going to be there was that biblical counselor I'd met with the year before. And so I was like, you've got to be fucking kidding me. This is fucking great. So the first person who comes in, I had not really had any interactions with [00:39:00] him. I met him my freshman year and that was it.

He comes in super fake, making that small talk again, and then blah, blah, blah. And then the other guy, the big old counselor that I met with, or the person who had counseled me at least, came in and like, I made my body language, like, I adjusted it purposely to let him know, like, I did not want to be around him at all, like, just to fuck off, you know, and then this guy, the first person, he was like, so, I'm just going to call him Dan, that's not his name, but I'm just going to call him Dan.

Dan was like, so he's like, do you know why you're here? And I'm like, yes, the Josh Harris interview. And then he was like, is there anything that you would like to say about anything that you mentioned in the interview? And I was kind of confused because I was just like, I feel like he wanted me to address something, but I wasn't sure what that was.

And I said to him, I was like, is there something you want me to address in the interview specifically? Um, because, because I said, I'm like, I stand by everything I said in the interview. I don't take any of it [00:40:00] back. 

[00:40:00] Hecate: Wow. Wow. 

[00:40:02] Andrew: And he was like, Oh, okay.

And again, and then it was just a period of him invalidating me and my experiences and saying like, people are imperfect, blah, blah, blah. Christians aren't perfect. Blah, blah, blah. And I just sat there like with his bitch ass face, just like, I don't give a fuck. Like, I don't like, this is not. It didn't, it wasn't helpful at all.

And it's like, it doesn't change anything. So I was like, whatever. And him defending the toxic system basically. But then he was like, so he's like, we haven't called your parents because usually when people get kicked out, the parents are called first, usually. And the parents will show up. I don't know if this is like this all the time, but I've heard this happen before.

The parents are called, the parents show up and pick up their child. Now, again, their grown ass adult child. [00:41:00] Their offspring. 

[00:41:00] Hecate: Yeah. 

[00:41:01] Andrew: And. It's just so weird, but anyways, they did not call my parents, and I think it was because in the interview, I had talked about how my parents were hesitant about Bob Jones and didn't approve of certain things about Bob Jones, and I think I painted a picture of how extreme the environment I grew up in was, and I don't think they wanted to talk to my parents or mess with that, and 

[00:41:25] Hecate: Interesting.

[00:41:25] Andrew: They said, they said to me, they're like, yeah, they're like, we're trusting you to call your parents. And another thing, like they handled my situation very differently. It was a unique situation because usually when you're expelled the time between your expulsion and moving off campus, you're usually like assigned someone who like follows you or make sure you doesn't, you don't cause trouble or, and you also have to stay in a room with a leader also.

And they said to me, they're like, yeah, they're like, we're, we're going to let you go back to your room with your roommate. We're not going to require you to stay with a leader. Um, and it was honestly, I think it was just my approach. My approach in the interview was [00:42:00] just really open minded and then like a kind, as a kind of approach as I could take, I guess.

Um, because I knew when I did the interview, I'm like, I don't want my approach to discredit this or push people away. Um, I want to paint a picture of, yes, people can be kind who don't believe this. And like that was my approach to it because I didn't want to push. I wanted all audiences to listen to it.

And so they had a hard time dealing with that because I wasn't mean or hateful in the interview. And so they're like, what do we do with that? How do we kick this person out? Um, but yeah, in the interview, like, you know, denounced fundamentalist teachings. I came out the closet. And what they said to me was, you know, because you don't identify as a Christian anymore, we do not want you at this school.

They never brought up my sexuality or anything. It was just, you don't identify as a Christian. We didn't want you at this school. And this was my very last semester. I was about to graduate in a few months. Um, so my senior year last semester at the school. So, you know, and before this meeting happened the family I, [00:43:00] I was in contact with in town, they had seen the interview and they had called me before they were like, we think you're going to get expelled.

And they were like, if you are just know you can come here. You don't have to go back into that environment or back to your parents. And so I was like, Oh, thank you so much. 

[00:43:15] Hecate: That's so sweet of them. Oh my gosh. 

[00:43:17] Andrew: and so, yeah. And so then the night that I was called into the office, I called them and be like, yeah, this is probably gonna

happen. And so I literally like went to the, as I was walking down, I stopped in the bathroom and called them and then I, and, you know, I kept going and went to that meeting and all this happened and, you know, I was expelled. And, and it's interesting because I wish I would have thought more clearly in that moment, there was a lot going on, but part of me was curious if I refused to leave, because what I've heard with people is that when you're kicked out, the way they handle it is like you sign a form that you're withdrawing, and that's the form that I signed.

[00:43:55] Hecate: Oh, interesting. 

[00:43:57] Andrew: So that was [00:44:00] something that like,

in that moment I didn't think of. And that's, at that moment. I'm like, I'm ready to get the fuck out. Like, I don't want to be here anymore. Um, but looking back, I'm like, wait, that was a form of withdrawal. That wasn't expulsion technically, even though, like, I was expelled. It's just I'm withdrawing and I'm consenting to that.

[00:44:18] Hecate: That 

makes me wonder if maybe they're, that's their work around, to like, maybe expelling, like, people that maybe it would be potentially illegal to expel for the reasons that they're asking them, or, you know, whether they're the reasons that they actually say, or not, like, that that's how they're getting around that.

That's 

That's really interesting. 

[00:44:39] Andrew: Yeah. So that was something I thought about later. But at that moment, I was ready. I was like signing away. I was like, I will leave like, please. 

[00:44:46] Hecate: Done! 

[00:44:48] Andrew: I will happily get out. 

[00:44:50] Hecate: So did you just pack up your stuff and then walk across the street? 

[00:44:55] Andrew: So what happened was they were kind enough to not throw me in the snow on the [00:45:00] street.

Um, but they said to me, they're like, because of this snowstorm, we're going to give you a few days. And, you know, I told that they were like, where are you going to go? And I was like, well, I'm not going back to my parents. I'm like, I'm not over my dead body. I said, and I was like, yeah, like I'm moving in with the family that I met.

And another thing that was annoying and really strange, which, really controlling also was this guy asked me, what church did you meet them at? And I was like, 

[00:45:31] Hecate: How cute. 

[00:45:33] Andrew: And I, at that moment, I was like, You know, there was always like that people pleaser in me, that's like, obey authority, do what they ask.

But then there was, you know, I had gained that autonomy and that rebel in me that was out. And I told, I said to him, I'm like, I'm not telling you that. And I don't have to tell you that. 

[00:45:47] Hecate: Good for you. 

[00:45:50] Andrew: He kind of turned red a little bit. It was kind of like shocked by that. I think. And then he's like, he's like, okay.

I was like, oh, that's okay. Whatever. 

[00:45:58] Hecate: Nice. I [00:46:00] love it. 

[00:46:00] Andrew: Because I knew I'm like, if I tell him, I'm like, they're going to send spies at this church 

[00:46:04] Hecate: Yeah! Or just like blacklist the church. I mean, it was already on the not approved list, but you 

know. 

[00:46:11] Andrew: So yeah, after that, once the snow like melted, like, I mean, after that meeting, I started packing. I started getting boxes

of things and I started packing away. And was so, and it was just so funny. I was like, I'm putting all this stuff in the hallway and people are looking like, it's always such a scandalous thing when someone gets expelled from Bob Jones university, it's like, Oh, like, why did they get expelled? What did they do?

And you know, how did the expulsion happen and all that? And so, yeah. So once the snow melted, I got it out and yeah, I moved in with that family. And. And that was, wow, that's, it was in a, over a year and a half ago that happened. 

[00:46:49] Hecate: That's amazing. 

[00:46:50] Andrew: Yeah. And in that time, I ended up transferring and I, back in May, I fit, of 2023, I finished my bachelor's [00:47:00] degree at another school.

So yeah, I ended up finishing that. So that's done. 

[00:47:04] Hecate: Congratulations. 

[00:47:06] Andrew: Thank you. 

[00:47:06] Hecate: Did you live with them while you were doing that or did you move to the other school? 

[00:47:10] Andrew: Yeah, so I transferred online. At that point I'm like, I'm not moving to a new campus, getting to know all the schedule, the classes, the places with just one year left.

I'm like, I'm just going to transfer online. So I've, I've, I still live with that family and have just been number one, like finishing college and figuring out like rebuilding my life after that. All of it is a lot, after being over 2 decades in fundamentalism, um, it's been for me so far, like, really networking with people, getting to know other people still, like, even just through online and even meeting people in the Greenville community of just

creating the life that I want, not what other people told me to do and truly finding that belonging that I never had growing up. 

[00:47:57] Hecate: What's that looked like for you? [00:48:00] What steps did you, did you take initially when you were like, this is what I need to 

do? 

[00:48:05] Andrew: Yeah, I mean for me, once I was expelled, I immediately started finding therapists, like searching therapists, that was the first thing I did.

And I found, like, really quickly, I found a really good therapist who acknowledges religious trauma, and he also went to Bob Jones and then left it because it was toxic. So... That was great that he knew that background. 

[00:48:25] Hecate: That's an incredible find. 

[00:48:28] Andrew: Yes. So he's still my therapist now. So yeah, so I went to therapy to start working through like the two decades of my life.

Um, and then after that, I mean, that semester I was like, you know what, I'm not going to worry about applying to schools or applying to jobs. I sold all my camera equipment, you know, to have some money for me and just to be, to just read, to journal, take walks, [00:49:00] relax, not constantly be doing these things and just be human.

Other ways I think finding people was like starting to talk about my story online and educating survivors on religious trauma and how that affects queer people and my experiences. And once I started doing that, I connected with so many people online that related to my story and my experiences and really finding that online community of people who get you and really understand what you've been through and

validate that. And so for me, that's been creating content and going onto their podcast to reach as many people as I can. And like, even with like this, like my Speaking Up podcast, like just the friends that I've made from doing that. And with the Surviving BJU podcast is also created its own little community of its own with other like BJU survivors from that environment.

I think it was four months after I was like out of that. [00:50:00] I was like, okay, like it's time. Like I need to get a job. I need to start saving and then, you know, finishing my college degree and then figuring out next career steps. But thankfully I was hired by Rachel Bernstein, who's a therapist and she's a cult expert and she hosts the IndoctriNation podcast.

And so I ended up, we had connected because I had been a guest on her podcast and she loved the work I was doing. So she hired me to be a social media manager for her podcast. So that's what I've been doing since. And it's perfect work for me because it's very purpose driven and I'm a very purpose driven person.

Um, yeah, so I've been doing that and yeah, recently, yeah, I graduated and I've been seeking out other job opportunities, which has been interesting as I've been navigating the Surviving BJU podcast, but I'm so excited for people to hear the Surviving BJU podcast and the survivor stories and even people like who did not go to Bob Jones, they will relate to the high control environment and the toxic [00:51:00] religious messages.

So I'm excited to see people's reactions to it. 

[00:51:04] Hecate: Yeah. 

There are so many different brands of fundamentalism in this country and they all have this, you know, these things that are very much in common, these similar methods of controlling people and, uh, You know, and something that I've noticed as well, like, doing this kind of work, is that, like, when, when someone is deconstructing religious trauma, it doesn't matter.

Like, it's, you know, it's wonderful if you can find someone who experienced exactly, like, went to the same church or, you know, whatever specifics, you know. But across the board, just understanding that, you know, that they've all experienced these similar, like, cause it is, as you said, the system. 

[00:51:46] Andrew: Yes. 

[00:51:47] Hecate: And, and across the board, like, the system does the same kind of damage to people.

Um, and there are so many people that are on their own just trying to deconstruct it, doing that similar work and trying to [00:52:00] not only you know, figure out what actually happened to them, but trying to, to find a way out of it and, you know, kind of like untangle that, that web that someone has kind of woven in their head.

And so I have, um, some things that I wanted to kind of touch base on. And since you were just talking about the podcast, how are you practicing self care during deconstruction for yourself and also this really emotionally demanding work that you're doing working on the podcast? And, and going over and having to pour over and, you know, listen to these things, you know, sometimes over and over in order to do editing.

How are you taking care of yourself? 

[00:52:44] Andrew: Yes. Yeah. It's definitely, it's been very difficult and like it got to a point for me when I started creating it and recording episodes. This was back in early June. I was like, I'm not sure if I can do this. There was that part of me that [00:53:00] was like, I don't know if I can continue.

This is so much on my mental health. Maybe I got into this way too early. Maybe I should wait later on. But despite that, I'm like, I don't know. I'm like, no, I'm like, I'm determined. I want to do this and I can do this. I just had to implement self care practices. And I've been collaborating with a scholar of fundamentalism who went to Bob Jones University.

They went there and they worked there for a long time and then they basically got excommunicated and they've been on the outside now, fighting against that system. And they, this person, her name is Camille Lewis. And she has been incredible with archiving BJU's history. She's also an archivist, so she archives BJU's history, things they don't want people to know about.

So she's been great in like, providing information that I need so I don't have to read through everything at least. So that's been great. There are some things I've still had to like search for, but [00:54:00] she's given me an incredible resource base for that. So it's been great. And I talked to her, like I emailed her, I was like, I'm like, this is really difficult work.

I don't know how you do this, handle this emotionally. And she was like, She's like, Andrew, she's like, just find a four legged animal, pet it. Like, if you have pets, pet, pet your animals. 

[00:54:19] Hecate: I love that answer. 

[00:54:21] Andrew: And so, yeah, my animal, I have two guinea pigs and they've been so helpful for me because my way to take a break is every hour I take a 20 minute break and I will just play with my guinea pigs or I'll take a 20 minute walk just to decompress and like moving your body.

I think that's so important when it comes to healing trauma, getting movement, getting that trapped energy out of you. And so walking, taking, like, knowing that, Oh, it's okay to take breaks. And I know in our capitalistic society, we're told to like work constantly. You had to constantly, you had to work these eight hour days and you get this one little break in the middle of it and blah, blah, blah.

And [00:55:00] I was like, no, I can take a break every fucking hour. Cause I can. And that's what I've been doing for myself. And like, and also you're more productive. Scientific studies have shown you're more productive anyways, when you take those several breaks and get more done and accomplishment. Anyways, but that's been something that has been helpful for me is like, and in order to do that, I have to be aware of my mind and my body and what's going on in it and getting in touch with that.

And therapy has been such a big part of that, and also journaling. Journaling my emotions has been so helpful when things get overwhelming. I'm like, what emotions am I feeling? Why am I feeling this? Journaling that. And my therapist has been great with helping me talk through and work through things because the year and a half I've been in therapy.

I, it hasn't even, I haven't even like talked about Bob Jones in therapy. Like it's just been my childhood and like Bob Jones is something I've been like avoiding for a while. And so it's not something I started, started getting into till recently till I dedicated myself to this podcast. [00:56:00] So, so it's a lot, but yeah, for the answer that you wanted, taking those breaks hourly, my therapist and journaling and petting my, um, pets.

[00:56:12] Hecate: What are your Guinea pigs names? I just want to know. 

[00:56:15] Andrew: Yes. 

[00:56:15] Hecate: Inquiring minds want to know. 

[00:56:17] Andrew: It is Carl and Siggy are their names. 

[00:56:20] Hecate: Carl and Siggy. 

Cute. 

[00:56:23] Andrew: Yeah. 

[00:56:24] Hecate: You mentioned earlier that there was some physical abuse in your childhood and something that you had said in the tech call, I asked you, do you identify as having experienced child abuse?

And you said maybe like a year ago, I would have said no. But I've changed my mind. And so I wanted to touch on that again to just kind of talk about that shift as identifying something that you've experienced as child abuse. And I wanted to ask how and why that shift occurred? And how that shift has affected you because it does change things in your life.

[00:56:59] Andrew: Yeah. 

[00:57:00] Mm hmm. Most definitely. Yeah. So for my childhood and really in fundamentalist Christianity in these families, you are abused and you're told that it's love. And I think that's the starting point of that. So when you're spanked or when you're physically hit. Your parents are do they, they think they're, oh, they're disciplining you.

They're telling you they love you. And they're taught to do this because, and the thing again, authority, authority, obey authority. If you basically being taught, if you don't spank your children they're going to end up disobeying authority figures, they're going to be in jail when they grow up. So, you know, get them while they're young to submit and obey and really breaking their will.

That's a big part of it too in the IFB is breaking the child's will. In these environments it's not about the child's needs. It's about what's going to make the child obey. What's going to make them [00:58:00] submit? What's going to make them conform? Like, psychological, emotional things, or needs are not a thing in this environment for children.

In that environment, it's like, give them food, water, shelter. That's all they need. And emotional Psychological needs aren't considered or acknowledged in that environment. And, you know, of course, I think there were times my parents, of course, they did try to show love and affection. I think it would be incorrect to say

they were never loving. There were moments they were definitely loving, but there were moments they were abusive and they believed that they were being loving. And for me, trying to untangle that has been difficult as I continue to do that. My parents, they continue this cycle. Their parents abused them, but they would never admit that.

They would never say that. They did what their parents did to them. They continued it because, again, bringing God [00:59:00] into it. Oh, God. wants you to discipline your children. God wants you to hit your children. And the thing with this, you're not teaching children how to deal with things. You're not teaching them how to emotionally regulate.

You're just teaching them to be ashamed of their emotions. So, I wasn't allowed to get angry growing up. And I recently learned this, but my dad, he listened to James Dobson books for parenting, and James Dobson taught a lot of abusive techniques on how to train children, which, trained children sounds awful, but that's what he really taught 

[00:59:37] Hecate: Yeah, that's what it is.

[00:59:38] Andrew: Yeah, and he, you know, he bases techniques on how he trained his dogs to make them submit and obey. And there is one thing, like, I didn't know this until recently, but my dad, he would all, when he would come over to me, that was like the few rare times if I would have an emotional outburst or angry or express something, he would come over and always like press or [01:00:00] pinch this certain part on my neck.

And it was just like this, um, nerve that would just hack my nervous system, and shut it down, and put me in freeze, and it always felt weird growing up, and I hated it when he did that. And I didn't understand, like, I was confused of why he would do that, like, I didn't know what he was doing, because at first it seemed like he was coming to put his hand on you to comfort you. That's what it looked like in public, at least, to everyone else, but what was happening was he was really pinching and hurting this certain part on me to shut my nervous system down because that's one of the techniques that Dobson taught. And so learned very early on can't express these emotions at all.

You know, also can't express opinions that go against what my parents teach and, you know, my parents, they did spank us. And it worked really well. Like their goal was to make us obey and it worked. But guess what? [01:01:00] It didn't teach us to emotionally regulate at all. And, you know, there's trauma that comes with hitting a child.

You know, I don't care what anyone says about spanking. Like Harvard has done studies. On the effects on a child's brain when you spank them, it's the same as any kind of physical abuse on the brain. Like, I don't care. Your brain sees it the same way, whether you'd like to see it that way, or if people are ready, like I've had people just put like comment, laughing emojis.

When I talk about spanking being physical abuse, they're like, they'll laugh when I talk about it in my own experiences. And that's very telling of people who think. 

[01:01:35] Hecate: Yeah. 

[01:01:36] Andrew: That's funny. Um, and I think people who do that, they've done that themselves and, or it's been done to them and they don't want to admit that it's abuse.

I 

think also. 

[01:01:45] Hecate: Tell me in the comments section that you're hitting your children without telling me that you're hitting your children. 

[01:01:49] Andrew: Yeah. 

And so growing up, my mom, she always had this special, like, spanking spoon type thing she had [01:02:00] bought or whatever not sure where she would buy it but it was always sitting in that cup. It was faded and worn it just sat there for like all the years of my childhood.

And we always knew where it was and yeah, she would spank us with that. And I remember there were times when if I knew I did something bad or I would get in trouble for, I would go find it and I would hide it. I would hide it in the house and my mom would be like, the spoon, like, where's the spoon at? Or no, she, I don't know.

Maybe she just, I think she called it the paddle, but whatever, where's the spoon at? And you know, eventually I'm like, Oh, like I hid it. Then now I have to give it back to her. Um, but yeah, with my dad it was always like I think I remember my first spanking. I think I was like five or six years old, I think that was the first memory of it.

And it was when I was fighting with my older brother, we were in our own sandboxes and across from each other, we were arguing about, I can't remember what it was, maybe like a [01:03:00] toy or something that we wanted, but we were yelling at each other. And my mom yelled at us to come inside. So here I am around like five years old.

I think my brother, he would have been maybe eight and we're going inside and he's like, you know, something like to the effect of y'all shouldn't be yelling and fighting, your dad's going to punish you for that. And so we never wanted to be spanked by our dad, like, of course we didn't want it at all, but we would prefer mom to spank us than dad because our dad was so brutal with it, because he would always make us take off our clothes, and then he would spank us naked, and it was just, it would hurt so much, and I think the humiliation also that came on with that. And so,

I remember my older brother, we were in line getting ready to go into the bathroom to get spanked, and I remember I was in line first, and he was just crying and crying and begging me, he's like, please let me go first, please let me go first, because he didn't want the agony of waiting in the hall as he listened to me [01:04:00] being hit. And then, you know, for, you know, me coming out and then him having to also deal with that, and so, that was my first memory of being spanked, and, I learned very quickly to obey and of course I'm human.

I'm a child, like I'm imperfect. I can't follow all these rules perfectly. So of course there was still spankings throughout my childhood when I was not perfect. And I also remember when I was older, maybe around like 9 or 10 that my parents were having friends over to the house. And I remember before these guests arrived, my mom and dad looking down at me and my little brother.

I mean, like, listen, like, if you embarrass us in any way, we are gonna spank you in front of our friends, if you do anything. And like, and once they started saying that, I just broke down crying because it's just such a cruel, awful thing to tell a child, I'm gonna do this to you. And [01:05:00] I was so afraid because I knew I'm like, Oh, if I'm not perfect, that I'm going to get spanked in front of them and humiliated.

And so it made me honestly just want to isolate and not come out because I'm like, Oh, if I don't do, if I don't do anything, then I can't get, then I won't get spanked in front of these people. And so it was just, and like, once I started crying, they were very like harsh. They were like, why are you crying?

Like really shaming. Like, why are you crying? We haven't done anything to you. Why are you crying? And it's like, you know, I didn't know, I just stood there crying, didn't say anything, just, they were just being so cruel and so awful. And again, like, I learned very quickly, like, oh, just conform, obey, and thankfully I didn't embarrass them.

But again, these fundamentalist families, they're all about their reputation. It doesn't matter what's going on behind the scenes or what the family dynamics are really like, as long as a reputation looks good. That's all that matters. So yeah, going forward, like, you know, there were several times I was [01:06:00] spanked throughout my childhood and, you know, before it would happen, my parents would say, I'm doing this because I love you.

And they would say that every time. And they would say, oh, this hurts me more than it hurts you. 

[01:06:13] Hecate: The classics. Yeah. Awesome. 

[01:06:16] Andrew: Um, and that's just so confusing to tell a child. I'm hitting you because I love you. 

[01:06:22] Hecate: Yeah. It sends you a very distorted message about what love is. How have you, how have you been kind of working on that about like, now that you're an adult and you're deconstructing all of these fundamentalist messages, how are you also deconstructing the message

not, not only from the church about, about what love is from God, but also the message that your, that your parents gave you about what love is? Because both were messages with abuse tied into 

them. 

[01:06:56] Andrew: Yeah, I think it is something I'm still grappling with a [01:07:00] lot and a lot of trauma revolving around that. But I've, as I've learned and really, as I've gotten into so many specifics and therapy and down the weeds, there are times I had to pull myself out.

for like just, you know, seeing the forest for the trees and I'm like, what's the big picture of all this? And I'm like, I'm learning to go from a place of fear to love, a place from disconnection to connection. And for me, undoing that has been really still so difficult because there are times I still feel isolated from people, even though I'm around them still, still learning to how to genuinely connect

with people. And I think one of the things that I struggle with still so much is craving that human touch, but also being so repulsed by it and hating it when people touch me. And I think that's something that comes from my childhood. So I think there's something somehow, I don't know how I'll learn to not [01:08:00] associate someone touching me with someone hurting me.

I don't know how long that will take to reach that, but that's been something that's been really hard to deal with. And thankfully my pets have been a way to like, compensate for the lack of human touch that I have. That's been really helpful for me throughout that journey. 

[01:08:19] Hecate: I snuggle my dog a lot.

[01:08:24] Andrew: I think too another core issue, as I've learned in therapy recently, I had a major breakthrough and specifically with like hypnotherapy with my therapist, but this core thing of like, beyond of like, I knew that the church indoctrinated me to feel that I'm worthless, and there's still that worthlessness It's not as bad as it used to be, but there's still that like messaging in me.

But I remember in a hypnotherapy session of me say, like, I remember at the end of it, just like emotionally understanding that deep down there's something inside of me that believes that I don't deserve [01:09:00] love that still has that. And there's something also inside of me that is so scared of that. And that fights that, that puts up these walls to fight against that.

And, you know, it, you know, after two decades of abuse and harm, it takes time to overcome that. So for me, those small baby steps of learning to connect with people and understanding these different triggers and what they come from and taking that time to reassociate that. And also, I think giving myself compassion as I heal, because I think when you go out of that, there can be so much shame around your triggers and around you not being healed.

You're like, Oh, I should be able to get over this or I shouldn't feel this way anymore. I shouldn't. So learn, learning that whenever something in my mind is like, I should feel this way. I should feel that way, or I shouldn't feel this way. Dig into that. Why, why are you telling yourself that? What is this from?

That's [01:10:00] usually like those kinds of messages are very shame based. So it's important to dig into the root of, why should you, like, why do you have these shoulds or should nots in you? 

[01:10:10] Hecate: And who gets to say 

what's a, what's a shouldn't, what's a should? That's... 

[01:10:14] Andrew: Yes. Yes. And so, yeah, so for me, a journey of number one, like emotional regulation, navigating emotions, recognizing emotions, understanding what the root is.

And it's just been. The last year and a half, which is this very short time of therapy, but it's been incredible for me where I'll be in an emotional crisis, and I will be shocked about how quickly it can be resolved through journaling and really understanding the root and getting it all out, how much I'll be fine three minutes later, because it has this feeling of pervasiveness of, or permanence of this will never go away, but working through it.

It's like, Oh, wow. I can work through this. I don't have to [01:11:00] say these platitudes or feel shame about it. I don't have to pray or do these things that aren't useful. I can actually work through it and grow as a person. So yeah, navigating emotions, trying to learn to connect with people, connect with myself.

And that's the important thing. You cannot connect with other people if you cannot connect with yourself. So that means like noticing your body. starting to learn what you really want in life. What are your passions, desires? And, you know, and it can, it can be hard to do that when you've been taught a certain way or given a certain identity, but it's a slow process.

And I'm, I'm trying to learn to give myself compassion of just letting my healing journey happen. Like not trying to be like, Oh, I have to do this. I have to do that. Cause I think part of the healing journey is learning to just let things be. 

[01:11:50] Hecate: Very well said. And thank you so much for sharing the emotional realization and that, that breakthrough moment in therapy.

Cause it's such, [01:12:00] it definitely is one that you can on one level rationally recognize about yourself, but actually emotionally connect with that realization. That's. It's an incredible realization. Um, and also I just wanted to say how incredibly cool it is that you're doing hypnotherapy. And I wanted to ask about that and how, like, what is 

that like?

[01:12:24] Andrew: Yeah. Yeah. It's been interesting because my therapist recently became certified in that. And he asked me, he's like, Do you want to start doing this? And I was like, yes, because I was frustrated with the results of the kind of general talk therapy we were doing. Like, it was great to a certain point, but I was like, okay, like I need something different.

But there were two different kinds he has tried with me. The first one... I'll just, I can't remember the names of it, but the first one was very passive. It was him walking me through this visualization, bringing me deeper and deeper and just saying these different prompts for things. And before we do [01:13:00] it, he's like, what things do you want to dig into?

What are some top, like, what are some issues? And so, you know, for me, I think one of the things was like walking down these steps and like walking down like 10 steps and you get lighter and lighter and lighter and then you're getting to this hallway and there are different memories that you get into and you're very passive in that moment and he digs you through these things and he asks these questions. And the other one, which I forgot the kind of hypnotherapy it was called, but it was more psychodynamic.

It was not so passive. It was more interactive and he was scared to try this virtually. So I went to him in person and he did this. Cause he's like, I'm afraid like, cause he had had issues I know before. And a friend of mine told me this, so he didn't disclose anything to me. I'm just telling this, a friend of mine.

goes to him for therapy. And she told me she was like, yeah, he was scared because I didn't come out of the trance and he had to like, really, and it was virtual and I didn't, it was scary. So [01:14:00] for him, so. 

[01:14:01] Hecate: That would have been nerve wracking. Yeah. 

[01:14:02] Andrew: Yes. But yeah, so I went to him in person and like, there was some core childhood memories that I wanted to like investigate or dig into.

And so he sat me in the chair. And, you know, I closed my eyes, and he counted down, and I got deeper, deeper, and deeper into it, and like, then he started describing, like, the thing that, like, it was so weird to me to feel, and he's like, yeah, and he's like, your legs, it's like, they go limp like ropes, and that was like the, when he said that, it was like the weirdest feeling, of my legs, and my body, just like, I don't know, it was like I was just floating. Or so, I don't know, it's just a weird feeling.

And then as I went deeper and deeper, and like, I, it was like this state of such a relaxed state of mind, an altered consciousness I guess you would say. And, but I could still hear him. And eventually it just, his voice, I could hear it, but it just became... Not as dominant, I guess you would say and as he would lead me [01:15:00] through these different things.

So I think then he still continued the door the analogy of the doors, but like it would be more interactive. He's like, okay, it's like let's go to this door. How do you feel? What's behind this door? And like if I was ready I would go behind the door and it was this memory and it was like going back to that memory, feeling those emotions. Um, because that was something that was so hard for me was, my main trauma response is disassociation.

And it's been interesting, like as I've been telling my story with people, they're like, they were like, Oh, you don't seem affected by this at all. You seem totally fine. Which really annoys me. It's really invalidating when people say that. Mm-hmm. . And it's like gotten on my nerves. There's been only a couple people who have said that.

When they say that, I'm just like, Ugh, whatever. Um, but, um. 

[01:15:47] Hecate: Surprise! I'm not in my body half the 

time! 

[01:15:50] Andrew: Yeah, I know. And like, it was just this disas like, I would disassociate so much. I wasn't feeling it. And I, and there was one point my therapist was like, and [01:16:00] he apologized for it. He's like, yeah. He is like, I don't think you need me.

I don't think you need therapy. And I was like, listen. I was like, I know me. I'm like, I know there are things that are trapped deep, deep inside my psyche. I'm like, emotionally, you may not see it now. It may not seem like anything is wrong with me right now, but I can tell you that it's there. And it's like, and it's hard because I feel so much shame around emotions.

I can't express them in front of other people. I'm like, listen, I'm like, listen, Uh, wait, I'm not gonna say his name. I'm like, listen, therapist, I've gone home and I've cried my eyes out alone in my room of things, but when I'm in front of other people, those emotions are shut down because I was taught to not have emotions in front of other people.

I'm like, do you understand? 

[01:16:43] Hecate: Yeah, I was raised to be an amazing actor. 

[01:16:49] Andrew: And so I was like, I'm like, it's going to take time to work through this. I'm like, it may not look like I have issues and I'm like, I've talked to you about issues of things and it might not look like to you that they affect me. [01:17:00] But I'm like, they do behind the scenes or when I'm alone and I'm like, I want to get to the place where I can,

I'm like, as painful as it will be, experience these emotions, get them out, and learn to connect with other people. Because I'm like, if I can't share these emotions or be vulnerable, like, I cannot connect. I'm always going to be separated from everyone. And so then he got the picture. Like, I had to like, show him, like, like, this is what we're dealing with.

And so hypnotherapy was like the start of digging to my unconsciousness of these repressed things. And I remember it took a year of therapy for me to cry in front of my therapist. Like that's how long it took. Everyone's journey is different. But for me, it took a year to cry. And that's when he was like, Oh, okay.

All right, here we go. There's a lot here, actually. 

[01:17:50] Hecate: Yeah. 

[01:17:52] Andrew: Um, and so I remember just crying my eyes out just so much. And it's just, it was such a weird feeling. I could feel the [01:18:00] release of it from my body of the trauma that we were talking through. And it was, it was great. It was a breakthrough moment. And I was like, and I said to myself, I'm like, I cried in front of you.

I'm so proud of myself. And he kind of laughed. And I'm like, what are you laughing at? I'm like, you have no idea how hard that is for me like how long that took for me to be able to get to the point to do that and to even like my for my psyche or my consciousness even let me experience this, to not shove this away.

So after that, it continued and I had a few more sessions of me crying and talking about things I'm like, Oh my gosh, like we're finally getting somewhere. And eventually I was like, I'm like, this is these are great breakthroughs but like we need a break because as he, as we did the hypnotherapy work, I noticed that because he unlocked this certain part of my unconsciousness, I would go throughout my day, and these random ass memories from my past would just pop up out of nowhere.

Completely. [01:19:00] Without like, you know, kind of like, you know, you're on your phone and those stupid ads come out of nowhere like that's just pop up. And so I was like, I was like, this is a lot. And so that would happen. And so I was like 

[01:19:12] Hecate: I love that 

analogy. I'm sorry. Like, I just have to say, like, the ads on your phone analogy is so perfect.

I can't even. 

Yes. 

[01:19:22] Andrew: Yeah. And so that's like, what would happen. And so I told him, I'm like, this is hard to deal with. And I'm like, I'm journaling as it happens, but I'm like, let's take a break with the hypnotherapy because this is overwhelming for things. But I'm like, I do want to continue it, but let me deal with these things.

And I told him, and I'm like, I'm also doing the Bob Jones podcast. So that's going to be a lot. So I'm like, let's just meet and go back to talk therapy as I talk through these things. And maybe we can dig into more hypnotherapy later on, when I'm more ready to unlock all of these repressed things. 

[01:19:54] Hecate: Yeah, I'm glad that you were able to, I'm, I'm so glad that you were able to, like, recognize [01:20:00] in, in the beginning, like, and advocate for yourself and say, like, no, there's, there's stuff here and to be able to say that to someone in order to get the help that you needed and then that you're able to, like, direct your treatment in such a way and recognize your own needs as, as far as what you need when, and that's amazing.

And I, I know that so many survivors are very curious about hypnotherapy, so thank you so much about just talking a little bit about it. I've never done it, but I, like, whenever, we'll, like, meet in rooms and just be like, have you ever, have you ever done it? I really want to do it. I really want to do that too.

Yeah. So, like, I had no idea about that, that you were doing that, so I got, like, I, I didn't show it on my face, but you said that, and I was just sort of like, oh, yeah? Thank you. 

[01:20:50] Andrew: Of course, there's a lot of stigma around it, but, uh, it was a very good experience. And I was kind of hesitant about it at first because the ideas in my mind, but [01:21:00] it's different for everyone.

Some people lose consciousness and they come out of it and they don't know. For me, I was conscious through the sessions I've done. So it's kind of different for everyone. 

[01:21:09] Hecate: Nice. I also wanted to ask what role spirituality has in your life now and in your healing if it has any role and what, what does spirituality mean to you now as someone who's recovering from religious 

trauma?

[01:21:24] Andrew: Yeah, I think for me It was so tempting to try to find new absolute answers and find a new belief system that I could cling, cling to and claim as truth, but I knew that wasn't what I needed. That wasn't healthy. That was like cult hopping in a way. And I'm learning to be open to different religious beliefs.

Be open to different spiritual beliefs and not having to force myself to have an answer for everything, which I was raised to do. You were raised to always have an answer, to defend the Bible, defend your faith. But for me, I'm like, I don't have to have an answer for these things, I don't have to defend [01:22:00] any belief or any disbelief.

I can just explore because there's so much to explore. And for me, like, I definitely believe in a higher power, whether that's, I don't know, universal consciousness or some kind of higher form of energy. I don't know, but I think there's some kind of higher power. I don't think anyone can know a hundred percent like, Oh, yeah, this is what God is.

Cause I think we're still figuring that out as we've evolved as human beings with our religious practices and our spiritualities. Um, I think, you know, we're evolving in our, I think the idea and like the, I, I call it like I've heard it mentioned with psychologists, they call it the God image that it's just, it's changed throughout cultures and different parts of history and it's continuing to evolve.

But for me, I'm very open to spirituality, but having that balance of skepticism also. Because I'm like, if I remove all the skepticism, I remove the reasoning. I'm like, I [01:23:00] just, I don't think that's going to be a good outcome of getting sucked into an emotion based belief, and you know, I've explored some of like spiritual tok and I've seen some interesting things and I'm like, there are some toxic parts in the spirituality area online, and just still different,

different beliefs, same like invalidation or same systemic issues of like repressing your emotions or, oh, like, like the law of attraction or like, oh, you're not believing enough. You're not trusting enough, if you would have this positive attitude, you would attract more. You just got to believe, you got to have those positive vibes.

And I'm like, 

[01:23:40] Hecate: yeah. 

[01:23:41] Andrew: And I saw 

that. 

[01:23:42] Hecate: If you look, oh, if I look at it sideways, it sort of seems like victim blaming, doesn't it? That's really 

interesting. 

[01:23:47] Andrew: Yes. And I was like, Oof, cause some of the talk, some of that blaming, I saw it again and I was like, that's interesting. Um, but I think what has really helped me with spirituality and exploring that and exploring [01:24:00] different religious ideas also is I've really have for the past year and a half dug deep into cult education.

And that has helped me see the signs in different spiritual groups, different social groups, different beliefs, and things that has helped the lens I look through to protect me from further getting involved. I, I personally don't recommend people getting involved in spirituality really quickly. At all. Like, I don't, but of course, if only people know what's best for their journey.

So that's best for you. Do it at your own pace, have some skepticism, do some cult education, understanding coercive control and group dynamics. But for me, I'm very open to that. And like, for me, like, I'm trying to, it's basically for me, like, I can. It's called like psycho spirituality and its approach of combining psychology and spirituality and using them to benefit each other.

Because I think there can be benefit to [01:25:00] spiritual beliefs to give people hope and meeting, but on the other flip side of that coin, spirituality can get to a point where we ignore all science and all evidence based things and cause so much harm to ourselves and others. So there's the other side of that.

So again, we need that balance of that. And another like weird connection is there's a lot of conspiracy beliefs in the spiritual community. Also, so much. So I think for me, psycho spirituality has been a way of, oh, let me balance skepticism and, you know, science and spirituality. Like, I can get meaning and purpose from this and feed my spirit.

And for me, like, it's a form, I guess you would say, of like trans personal psychology, of finding that meaning through also psychology and understanding that I'm still believing in a higher power, but again, not removing all reasoning altogether. And kind of, it's definitely a very, like, personal growth [01:26:00] oriented approach.

And the thing is, because I'm not, like, dogmatic, I can explore all kinds of things. I don't have to be closed to one interpretation. I want to learn as much as I can. I think for me, part of my, like, spirituality is, like, still taking it from, like, more a secular approach, like, secular spirituality also of, like, finding meaning in my activism.

I think that has been a big part of my spirituality and, like, wanting to make a difference in people's life for this higher purpose of bringing awareness to abuse in these environments and helping other people. 

[01:26:36] Hecate: I also 

wanted to ask about your relationship with intuition, and kind of regaining, uh, or, or trusting in your own intuition, um, during, during this healing process.

[01:26:49] Andrew: It has been quite a process because growing up, that was something that was repressed if my, if my mind or my intuition went against what the group taught, repress that, put that down, that's [01:27:00] Satan, don't trust that, don't trust yourself. 

[01:27:02] Hecate: Trust 

others rather than yourself. Any, anything within you says that what's happening around you or what you're being taught is wrong or uncomfortable.

Yeah. Push that away. Don't trust it. 

[01:27:16] Andrew: Yeah. And so I think, you know, sadly in my story, I had to get to rock bottom to start learning to listen to myself. And there were moments throughout my childhood where the intuition would come up, but I pushed it down because I had to listen to authority and to the teachings and trust others and not myself, like you said.

So I think sadly I had to get to rock bottom to like, begin getting in touch with that. And it had to, really, to do that, I had to know that there is something good inside me, there is good in me. I'm not this evil person, rotten to the core, like I was taught growing up. There is something, there is good in me, and there's a part of me that knows [01:28:00] what is best for me intuitively.

And learning to be in touch with that. And for me, like meditation, that's been helpful for me, just being contemplative and observing what happens, what flows into your train of thought or your consciousness. And again, I think also learning to say "no", honestly, if you're these authority figures are telling me to do this thing, but I don't feel comfortable.

I don't feel like that's right. I can say no. Or in the case of Bob Jones, just go behind their backs and disobey them. But there's something inside me that knows when something is right or wrong and I will follow that. And it's been a journey of also like distinguishing, like, what's me, what's the cults that I grew up in.

It's not fun, but it's part of that process. Um, because you had to distinguish between these different things in your head because the indoctrination comes up and then there's the actual [01:29:00] intuition, and then there's what, you know, your parents. 

[01:29:01] Hecate: What's me, what's the programming? Yeah. 

[01:29:03] Andrew: Yes. So that's a part of that, too, I think, also.

[01:29:07] Hecate: I love 

that, um, it's revolutionary, like, the idea that truth can come from within yourself and not just from above, 

on high. 

[01:29:17] Andrew: Yes. Fundamentalists hate that because they can't control you that way if you learn to listen to yourself. 

[01:29:22] Hecate: Do it! Do it! Um, and, 

uh, I wanted to ask, what is the biggest challenge that you've faced in your 

healing? What's challenged you the most?

[01:29:35] Andrew: Wow, that's a lot. I would say it would be navigating my relationship with my parents, I think. I decided to stay in contact with them because when I was expelled from Bob Jones, I honestly thought they were going to cut me off because we had shunned that family member in the past we had to do, but they were worried I was going to cut them off, but I set my boundaries.

And what they could [01:30:00] and couldn't contact me about, or what they could or couldn't send me in the mail, or things they couldn't bring up. Um, and they've been respectful and have followed my boundaries about things. And that's why, I like there, there were definitely times in therapy where I'm like, I might want to break contact with them.

I'm not sure yet. My therapist has helped me with that, but I've decided to stay in contact with them, at least at this point in time, because they've respected boundaries, and I definitely think they have changed some as people than what I was in my childhood. Like, of course, they did all the harm and abuse and, you know, they believed that it was love, but it was still abuse.

But I think that in their minds, they genuinely thought they were doing the right thing. That doesn't make it okay at all. 

[01:30:46] Hecate: Yeah. 

[01:30:47] Andrew: Still so wrong. But they, they were not willing to break the cycle. They were not willing to question. And so I am the one in the family to break that cycle, to really [01:31:00] change the trajectory, to change these things that people have normalized as okay.

Be like, no, this is not okay. But that's something that's been hard to navigate, uh, just because the triggers of that and just even the relationship that I have with my mother. Thankfully, it's a lot different than what I grew up with, with setting those boundaries. We're not enmeshed like we were growing up.

It is harder to not talk about my personal life and things that are going on. They're not affirming at all. So I can't, that's stuff I don't talk about. And even the work that I do like this, my podcast, the ad, like my activism, the fact that I, you know, I work for a cult expert and on the IndoctriNation podcast, I can't really talk about that.

So it's hard that there's so much of myself I can't share. So there's only so much closeness I can have to them. And I think for me, the hardest part has been grieving that healthy relationship, that healthy attachment that I never had with my [01:32:00] parents, the relationship, like the childhood that never happened. That, that, the health, the happiness, and just that didn't happen and the innocence that was taken away, I think, at such a young age.

[01:32:12] Hecate: Since you, 

uh, you just mentioned things you can't talk about with them, I want to ask about Queer joy, and, uh, and what role that has in your healing. If you've, you know, what Queer joy means to you, if you've managed to find any, if you've sought out a Queer community, um, after that, that experience with that church at BJU or....

[01:32:39] Andrew: Yeah.

I feel like for me, like, there was so much Queer joy with coming out of the closet. And like, it was just such a weight on my soul. It's like, now I'm out, I don't have to hide anything, I don't have to hide from anyone. And it was just like so much was lifted. It's like I had been holding my breath for years or my spirit had been holding its breath for [01:33:00] years and then it just finally let go.

And like that was a lot of the joy I think that I experienced and the relief from that. And you know, being in an affirming environment where I don't have to worry about my safety or being accepted or not. Um, and thankfully I have been able to meet definitely queer people since that, but it's, it's been definitely hard for me to like, begin to integrate, I guess, in a queer community because I think I still feel that separateness.

Like I'm weird, I'm strange. I think it's something that has just happened from coming out of that feeling. When you leave a cult you're like a, you're a fish out of water. You feel so strange, so out of place, so it's, it is harder to find that belonging again. Um, but thankfully, again, online friends, and I have connected with some people in the local community.

But I think... there's still, [01:34:00] there's still like a part of me that's, when I am around, when I have been around queer people locally at certain times, and like, there's just, I mean, this is a whole other thing that's a part of the queer community. It's like, there's a lot of these, especially like queer men, there's also like these very perfectionistic standards you feel like you have to meet.

I think, that a lot of people don't talk about. I think in the queer community. 

[01:34:25] Hecate: Yeah. 

[01:34:25] Andrew: So when I when I'm around other queer people, and we're all trying to hold ourselves up to this standard, I compare and I'm like, I feel bad. You know what I mean? 

[01:34:35] Hecate: So I want to clarify, are you talking about some of the, like the physical standards that exist, especially within like the community of gay men or, or are you talking about, like, the idea of, like, being queer enough?

[01:34:48] Andrew: Uh, for me, thank you for asking. I think for me it's the physical part, yeah. The physical, I, I think as a major, like, I guess ideal that's expected, you have to have, like, the perfect [01:35:00] body, you have to look this way or be this way. And like, I recently, like, I took like a, um, over a half a year break from dating apps.

Cause I was just, I wasn't ready for that. And so I took a long break and I recently got back on out of curiosity and I'm just like, swiping. I'm like, Oh, all these perfect bodies and it makes me feel so much shame too. I think when I'm out in the community and I see these people and I'm like, it makes me not want to accept, I guess that part, like, and not accept my body or try to express my sexuality either.

So that's something I'm still grappling with. And I think I still have like perfectionism from when I grew up in. That's also a part of that too. So that's been a struggle for me of overcoming perfectionism. Yeah. 

[01:35:46] Hecate: Well, and it, those super unhealthy standards, um, also just like, poke that, you know, as, as you said, that realization of, 

[01:35:55] Andrew: I don't deserve love. 

[01:35:57] Hecate: of having... yes! Exactly.

[01:35:57] Andrew: Yeah. I'm not good enough. Oof. [01:36:00] Yeah. 

[01:36:00] Hecate: Yeah. 

I've heard from a lot of people that this is a very, uh, a very unhealthy and a, and a very triggering thing that especially as, as someone it is reaching out for community and it's so critical. Um, you know, on so many levels as an individual and then some of the, um, Yeah, the problems that we have within within our community, you know, and our little, our little, our little separate tables with, with, you know, letters of the alphabet, our alphabet mafia, we all have our problems. Um, the standards and the physical standards and the way that that interacts, um, you know, and all of these, all of these things that we bring with us from

uh, you know, the, the, this heteronormativity that we were all like raised with and then sometimes we bring, uh, we bring some of that with us into the queer community and just like, yeah, 

let's discontinue this. 

[01:36:57] Andrew: And I think like the media is definitely a part of [01:37:00] that too, which is so frustrating. And it's, you know, it's always, the media has always been a part of body image just in general, across the board.

And it was recently that I saw a clip, and it made, I, I love this person, but this clip made me so mad. But it was this comedian, his name is like, his name is Matt Rife. And I saw a clip of him, he was talking about gay men. He's like, yeah, it's like, he's like, yeah, you are just incredible. Like you literally like have the perfect

bodies, you have all this energy. Y'all have the funniest personalities are so fun. And it's like, y'all just come in and y'all are just so like, like all the physique and everything. And I didn't in all of that. And I wanted to like scream at him and say, do you know how much the queer community struggles with eating disorders?

And you're like glorifying saying good for you for being skinny. Good for you for having this physique. And I'm like, do you not know? Like, ugh, anyways, that's a whole new thing. I'm like, ugh.

[01:37:52] Hecate: You're 

not helping! 

[01:37:53] Andrew: No! 

[01:37:54] Hecate: Yeah. Yeah, so I've, I've, I'm not sure, I can't [01:38:00] remember if it ever came up, but I have a history with an eating disorder and, uh, and I know so many other survivors who also, also have that intersectionality.

Um, so, so that was, you know, as, as I've stuttered my way through this moment, it's me, uh, you know, like thinking about all of them, thinking about myself and then, you know, just, uh, the, the intersections with the, the standards that are not only had you know, by the overculture, but also within the queer community as well, because there's no way that it won't infiltrate a little bit.

And, um, and just these, these very different standards, um, for, you know, different sections of, of, you know, queer community and, uh, you know, what this looks like, what that looks like the, the ideal and, um. And every time we, we try to force ourselves to mold ourselves to an ideal, you know, eventually that will become unhealthy.

[01:38:56] Andrew: Yeah. And that's, that's a, that's a pattern that I've known for [01:39:00] my, like I've seen in myself and I'm trying to stop is, and I think, you know, it's common to feel it in social groups, but I think because of just my upbringing, it's so much stronger. But in my mind, when I go into a social group, I always feel like I had to put on a role.

I have to be somebody I'm not to be liked. 

[01:39:18] Hecate: Yes. 

[01:39:19] Andrew: And fitting a role. And so that's the always pressure that I feel when I go into any social group. I'm like, Oh, what role do I need to play to be liked. You know, this is something we feel as humans in general, honestly. And for me, like, I'm trying to stop that because it's like, you cannot connect with people.

If you are not being yourself, you cannot be vulnerable if you're being somebody else, you're putting on a role, putting on a mask. So that's something else that I'm dealing with. 

[01:39:44] Hecate: And I'm, I am in a similar journey of unmasking as a neurodivergent person. And so really recognizing like, ah, I keep going into these social situations and, and masking, and

performing, and checking, you know, [01:40:00] like mirroring or just being like, what do you need from me? What do you need from me? Who am I supposed to be? Um, in order for this to be slightly less awkward, um, which with me, uh, you know, IRL... or virtually this could have been incredibly awkward for you. I don't know, but 

there's still time, 

but, uh, But really just kind of realizing it's not fair to me, it's not fair to them, and it also doesn't make space for me to really recognize more clearly, uh, maybe I'm not supposed to connect with this person.

Maybe I'm not supposed to be around these people. Maybe they're not safe and I'm not going to get the cues that I need in order to make that decision because I'm not actually being my authentic self and they don't recognize it. And, you know, it's easier for me to stumble sometimes into, into these circles where it's like, you guys would love to see me dead!

And I didn't realize [01:41:00] that because you didn't know who I was! Um, and it's, yeah, it's, it's wild. But, uh, yeah, and I wanted to ask, uh, where have you found the most strength and support in your healing? 

[01:41:13] Andrew: Yeah, I would say where I've found the most strength and support is really, like, the online communities of, like, the deconstruction, religious trauma slash cult survivor community because it's so validating and healing to go to someone and not have to explain anything. Like they just get it. And recently I was able to connect with someone in my, literally in my neighborhood who also grew up in the IFB. They were homeschooled their entire life also, and also went to a fundamentalist Christian college.

So that's been a great source of friendship with that person to just, not, because I don't feel myself on guard because I know that they get me. 

[01:41:56] Hecate: They just get it. 

[01:41:57] Andrew: They understand it, they get it, they [01:42:00] understand it. I just don't have that feeling of having to be someone. So for me, yeah, finding fellow survivors has been so crucial to my strength and I think continuing to share my story and with other survivors and on platforms like this I think it's so empowering and it like helps continue to motivate me to continue doing this work quite honestly. 

[01:42:22] Hecate: I feel 

like there's probably going to be some survivors with religious trauma who just heard you say that, and maybe they're just in the beginning of their journey of deconstruction.

And you mentioned finding online community, deconstruction community, uh, especially, and I feel like there's some of them going like, where is that? Where can I find that? Where did you find it online? 

[01:42:45] Andrew: For me it started on Instagram. I just started searching "deconstruction" and like the hash, there's a hashtag deconstruction.

There's also the hashtag exvangelical. That's a common one. Or there's exfundie. 

[01:42:59] Hecate: Exfundie, I've seen [01:43:00] that. Yeah. 

[01:43:01] Andrew: Um, and I just started watching creators. And also Reddit. Reddit is a good place. I'm trying to remember, there's an exvangelical community, a Reddit, subreddit on Reddit. There's a cult survivor subreddit also on there.

Those are two ways that I've also connected with people. And there's also FundieSnark. Um. 

[01:43:23] Hecate: What is that? Is that a, I haven't heard of that. Is that a website or what is it? 

[01:43:27] Andrew: It's 

basically a subreddit that makes fun of fundamentalist social media influencers. Basically. And like, prominent figures in fundamentalism and just kind of like gossiping and making fun of it.

[01:43:40] Hecate: Oh, wait, this, 

this was mentioned in Shiny Happy People, wasn't it? 

[01:43:44] Andrew: Yes, it was. 

[01:43:45] Hecate: I feel like 

it was. Oh, yes. Okay. 

[01:43:48] Andrew: Yeah. So that's a fun place. 

[01:43:50] Hecate: Thank 

you so much for talking about that because I definitely, like, want to be able to, um, to guide people to, you know, more places where people like you are having these [01:44:00] conversations and where they can feel less alone and kind of get some, some guidance as, as they do this, this inner work.

Is there anything that you want to say to the survivors 

who are listening? 

[01:44:11] Andrew: There is healing and there is hope, and there was a time in my life where I didn't think that was possible, but there are people on the outside and I know the outside is so scary and it's you're kept dependent in this system of control.

What I would say is, before you attempt leaving that environment, learn to connect with yourself, listen to your thoughts, observe them, analyze them, don't be afraid of them, don't repress them, because you need to connect with yourself to know yourself so you can make, like, good decisions on things. Because that's the thing about these environments, they cut you off so much

from yourself, and that keeps you dependent on them. So learning to trust those voices inside you and there [01:45:00] might be some things you might be concerned about in your mind or voices, but you're not going to solve issues by shaming those things away. By inviting those things with love and compassion and understanding that instead of thinking, and I saw this recently online, I'm not sure who wrote it, but it was a therapist or a psychologist, but they said, instead of saying, what's wrong with me?

Instead, reframe it as, what pain am I experiencing? 

[01:45:28] Hecate: Mm, 

I like that a lot. I think that goes for all sorts of survivors, not just the ones with religious trauma. 

[01:45:35] Andrew: Yeah. 

[01:45:36] Hecate: Thank you. And thank you so much for coming here and for sharing so much of yourself and your story. This has been absolutely incredible. Like, I've been, since we scheduled, I've been looking forward to this for weeks and I'm just like, we did it!

We got to have this amazing talk and I'm so excited to share this episode and I'm so excited it, like having this future moment where everybody who's listening to this now gets to just go check out your [01:46:00] podcast. But I have to wait, so... 

[01:46:02] Andrew: I know, yeah. 

[01:46:02] Hecate: And you have to work on it, so. 

[01:46:04] Andrew: Yeah. So people who're listening, Surviving Bob Jones University: A Christian Cult, all of the episodes will be out by this time.

So please go check that out. 

[01:46:13] Hecate: I'm so excited. 

I'm just going to like, the link is going to be in episode notes. It's right there for you. Go check it out. 

So 

[01:46:21] Andrew: yeah, thank, thank you again so much for having me on and just taking the time out of your day to give space to this cause I know it's been a long interview.

[01:46:29] Hecate: It's been 

amazing. 

[01:46:31] Andrew: Long story. 

[01:46:31] Hecate: And thank you so much for hanging out for a little extra time to really just like give everything cause cause it deserves time. And, um, and it, it changes lives. And you're, you're changing lives. Thank you so much. I just, I so value you and your time and all the incredible work that you're doing.

And thank you so much for doing it. So thank you. Thank you for being you! 

[01:46:55] Andrew: Thank you. And thank you also for being you because I think the message of this [01:47:00] podcast is so great. Like finding okay. Like, finding that healing, finding that space, so I hope that people can, through this episode, go on a journey of finding that okay for them.

[01:47:13] Hecate: Aw, 

thank you. And remember, that's just the first step. After okay there's also joy! 

[01:47:17] Andrew: Yes! yes. 

[01:47:18] Hecate: So, like, you know, one thing at a time. Like, yeah, it's there. It's there. Yeah. And thank you 

so much. 

[01:47:24] Andrew: Thank you again. 

[01:47:25] Hecate: Thank you. 

[01:47:26] Andrew: Uh, for having me on. It's been so great. 

[01:47:27] Hecate: Yeah. 

And have, have a beautiful rest of your day, and 

[01:47:29] Andrew: thank you.

[01:47:30] Hecate: Just so 

appreciate you. 

[01:47:31] Andrew: You too, aw thanks. Bye . 

[01:47:36] Hecate: Bye. 

[01:47:36] Andrew: Bye. 

[01:47:37] Hecate: Thank you so much for listening. Please check episode notes. There you'll find links to Andrew's website, his podcasts, and links to help you learn more about some of the subjects we touched on in this episode. I hope you'll join me in listening to his new podcast, Surviving Bob Jones University: A Christian Cult.

Episode notes is also where you can find all my links, so you can [01:48:00] check out my website, follow me on social media, subscribe on YouTube, and catch me live on Twitch. Quick podcast update, I will be taking a scheduled break in September to make space for a trauma anniversary. I'll be using this time to focus on self-care, work on printmaking, and finish writing the next personal story episode.

Episodes will return in October and Patreon members will be getting updates during this break. Speaking of which, shout out to all my patrons that made today's episode possible. Thank you, Emerald, Christopher, Meadow, Sunny Day Outlaw, Kathleen, Betty, Ashley Sedonka, Bryony, and Mark. A special shout out to Mark.

Thank you so much for joining. Oh, it makes such a huge difference and thank you so much for the beautiful message you sent me. I haven't had a chance to respond yet, but oh my gosh, it made such [01:49:00] a difference to me. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. You all mean so much to me and none of this would be possible without you.

Thank you. Letters for the Fire is back, and I'm accepting submissions till the end of the year. Listeners are invited to write a letter to their rapist or abuser and send it to me. I read all your letters in a special episode at the end of the season and burn them for you. You can learn more about how to participate by clicking the link in episode notes.

Today's episode was edited and produced by me, Hecate. The music is Your Heart is a Muscle, the Size of Your Fist, used with the permission of Ramshackle Glory. Thank you again for listening. This has been Finding OK. Black Lives Matter. Take care of yourself. 

Your heart is a muscle, the size of your fist.

Keep on lovin. Keep on fightin. And hold on. And hold on. Hold on for your [01:50:00] life. For your life.... Your heart is a muscle the size of your fist. Keep on lovin. Keep on fighting. And hold on. And hold on. Hold on for your life.