Healing Honestly

In this episode I speak with Alisa Zipursky about her book 'Healing Honestly,' a powerful resource for survivors of childhood sexual abuse. Alisa and I discuss the legitimacy of traumatic memory, the harmful myth of False Memory Syndrome, and the journey of healing through self-acceptance and community support. Alisa shares insights on overcoming self-blame and self-shame, parenting as a survivor, and finding strength in connections. Whether you're a survivor yourself or supporting one, this episode offers valuable perspectives and reassurances. 

TW/CW: Childhood sexual abuse, Family Abuse, PTSD, Eating Disorders, body image, and strong language.

Episode Notes:

Healing Honestly by Alisa Zipursky: https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/726361/healing-honestly-by-alisa-zipursky/

Alisa's Website: https://healinghonestly.com/

Finding OK: https://www.finding-ok.com/

Hecate's Links: https://linktr.ee/FindingOK

Support the Podcast and become a Patreon member!
https://www.patreon.com/HecateFindingOK

Finding OK is funded entirely by generosity of listeners like you!
https://www.finding-ok.com/support/

Music is "Your Heart is a Muscle the Size of Your Fist" used with the personal permission of Ramshackle Glory. Go check out their music!
https://open.spotify.com/artist/0qdblxxVBeNzq1LFwzjN9g?si=G99NwDuSQBqRGWZi53BoZg


Timestamps:

00:00 Introduction and Opening Monologue
00:55 Welcome to Finding OK
01:13 Interview with Alisa Zipursky
03:07 Trigger Warnings and Support
04:10 Personal Reflections and Parenting
06:20 Stepping into Power and Activism
15:45 Healing and Self-Care
24:15 The Importance of Connection
42:36 Healing Without Clear Memory
51:01 The Origin of DARVO and False Memory Syndrome
52:36 The Impact of False Memory Syndrome Foundation
54:39 Media Influence and Public Perception
57:11 Personal Experiences and Societal Harm
58:56 Challenging Harmful Narratives
01:02:04 The Importance of Community and Support
01:03:46 Healing and Self-Acceptance
01:05:52 Navigating Parenthood as a CSA Survivor
01:15:02 Final Thoughts and Encouragement
01:34:58 Closing Remarks and Gratitude

Transcript

Ramshackle Glory: 0:15

Dhalia never showed me nothing but kindness. She would say, "I know how sad you get". And some days I still get that way, but it gets better. It gets better. It gets better. Sweetie, it gets better I promise you. And she'd tell me, she'd tell me. Your heart is a muscle the size of your fist. Keep on loving. Keep on fighting. And hold on. And hold on. Hold on for your life.

Hecate: 0:55

Hi there. Thank you so much for joining me. I'm Hecate and this is Finding OK, A healing podcast for survivors of sexual assault and any and all abuse. When survivors share, we share strength. You are not alone. I am so excited to share today's episode with you. I had the pleasure of speaking with Alisa Zipursky about her beautiful book, Healing Honestly. It's one of my absolute favorite books I've ever read for this podcast and one of the most helpful books I've ever read in my own healing journey. I just want to read the full cover for you. It says, "The Least Re-traumatizing Read on Childhood Sexual Abuse. For Survivors, By a Survivor. Healing Honestly: The Messy and Magnificent Path to Overcoming Self-blame and Self-shame". No bullshit there. This book is fantastic and I cannot recommend it strongly enough. I was originally scheduled to interview Alisa over a year ago, and then had to postpone it for my mental health break when burnout came in like a wrecking ball, and that meant that the copy of her book she sent me was sitting on my shelf waiting for me, and finally being able to read it and talk to her about it was such a wonderful feeling and such a true pleasure. Alisa Zipursky is a storyteller, writer, facilitator, and a survivor of childhood sexual abuse. She started her website, Healing Honestly, in 2016 when CPTSD reared its head and interrupted her life in a way that made it impossible to ignore. Her website and her writing grew into a thriving community. She shares her healing journey with a raw transparency and a humor that resonates strongly with many other survivors. Alisa has a readership of over 500,000, and she also offers workshops, coaching for fellow survivors, and gives keynote addresses all around the USA. She published her book in 2023 as a survivor led guide to healing, and I truly hope you check it out. Now, let's get into it. Trigger and content warnings for this episode include the following: Childhood Sexual abuse, family Abuse, PTSD, Eating Disorders, body image, and strong language. Please check in with yourself and make sure you're all right to continue. If you enjoy the podcast, please consider supporting my work by becoming a Patreon member. Tiers start as low as $1 a month, and membership at any level changes my life. Tier three and four Patrons gain early access to Finding OK episodes, as well as a supplemental Patron podcast called Finding More. Creating this podcast takes an incredible amount of time, energy, and emotional labor. And so if you believe what I'm creating has value, and you believe in supporting survivors and compensating them for their labor, please click the link in episode notes to learn more about membership benefits. Finding OK is funded entirely by the generosity of Patrons and listeners like you. Thank you. So, I would really love to know, are you okay?

Alisa: 4:15

I really am. And it's so funny because when you initially sent me these questions. We had to, um, reschedule our initial interview.'cause I lost, uh, internet and cell service. My whole neighborhood did for a good couple hours. But I saw that and I was like, you know what, bitch, no, I'm not okay. And then a couple weeks later, I'm like, I saw that question again and I was like, you know what, bitch, I am okay. Um, yeah, I think that I'm in a space right now where I've been able to step back into my power. It's been a wild year and a half. I became a mother, a new mother, um, in January of 2024 and moved across the country as well from my hometown of DC out to California. And like all of these things are very positive, beautiful things, but have been very disorienting. And it's not even like trying to go back to myself. It's like trying to create a whole new relationship to myself.

Hecate: 5:20

Mm-hmm.

Alisa: 5:21

And I love parenting more than I ever could have imagined. And I tried imagining it a lot. And also it's like hella triggering a lot of the time. Like, thank God I have so many other CSA survivor friends who have been parenting for years to turn to for support. And that's been really critical, but it's been non-linear as a result, you know? And so experiencing new kinds of triggers while also feeling sort of the inevitable loss of self. When you carry a child, and give birth to a child, and then if you breastfeed a child, you know, like all of these things, like the physical loss of your body and the life you kind of knew before, um, it was all, it's been a lot. But the last couple of days, I don't know, I have just felt like there has been space to breathe. There has been clarity in my purpose. Um, the world around us is a terrifying hellscape, uh, as we rapidly descend into fascism.

Hecate: 6:28

Yeah.

Alisa: 6:28

And yet strangely, I feel like I know what I'm supposed to do. Um, I'm a hell raiser. I don't do well with authority figures. I am like a flame thrower. I am a fire sign. I'm a double Aries like. I know that the role I need to play in this moment is vis-a-vis like my loud ass mouth and speaking truth to power whenever and however I can. And then trying to embody that as a mother and supporting my child. And so even though it's like garbage and terrifying almost all the time, I feel like a clarity about where my power lies and how I should be using it.

Hecate: 7:20

I 100% feel that and very much relate to that. I've been so deep in grief lately. Um, and as you say, terrifying hellscape 100%. Yeah, and then also that really sharp clarity. Stepping into power and that clarity of purpose. This is a part of my purpose and I assume it's a huge part of your purpose as well.

Alisa: 7:46

Yes.

Hecate: 7:46

So I'm just, I'm just so grateful to be talking to another hell raiser and, uh, and be in this space where we can just both say fuck fascism and

Alisa: 7:56

Abso-fucking-lutely. Abso-fucking-lutely. And if you know, it, it for real though. You know? Uh, the, I was feeling so lost, so lost in my work. So lost. You know, it's normal after like you publish a book to just be like, what the hell do I do with myself now? And then that compounded with, becoming a new parent, moving, and all this stuff. I was just so lost and unsure of myself. And then the day after he was elected, I was like, nope, I know exactly what I need to be doing. Like, I have a capacity to help certain people who have been through the worst shit.

Hecate: 8:38

Mm-hmm.

Alisa: 8:38

And offer support and clarity and compassion, and help people feel less alone in their experiences and in their healing. And I know that we need that now, and we need it also more than ever.'cause this shit is triggering as all hell.

Hecate: 8:55

Mm-hmm.

Alisa: 8:55

Our country is in real time, like replicating the abuse that so many of us have experienced and endured. And so I was just like, fuck it. Like if I have to go online and read my book page per page so that people have access to it and they feel like they can get the support they need, I'll do it. I don't give a shit. I joined TikTok. I started posting on Instagram every single day, joining YouTube, doing it all. I'm on SUBSTACK now. I don't give a shit.

Hecate: 9:23

Nice.

Alisa: 9:23

Wherever survivors are is where I need to be because this is the time where we really need each other and I feel like I have something to offer.

Hecate: 9:34

You do. I have loved, the posts that you've been sharing.

Alisa: 9:38

Oh, thank you

Hecate: 9:38

And it has been, oh, I, I love the people who are stepping into their power, in this moment. And I definitely see you as one of them.'Cause we're all trying to do it. We're all trying to do it. But yeah, every, every time that somebody steps forward and into their power and, and speaks in these moment, it's such a lifeline to other people. Even if it just feels like screaming into the void. And so I, I have loved, uh, having you pop up, and just some of the things that you're talking about have been so helpful. And, and also just hearing someone actually name what's happening, um, and knowing who's actually willing to talk about it is, is really a beautiful and important thing. So thank you.

Alisa: 10:23

Thank you for offering me that.'cause it's, it's still a new medium for me, but I really love it and I'm just trying to replicate what I love online. So a lot of them are like videos I'm doing my makeup and I'm talking about like CSA healing from trauma and the political landscape we're in.

Hecate: 10:43

Yeah.

Alisa: 10:43

And I'm like, you know what? Let me give you something fun to look at while we get into the heavy stuff because like whatever it takes, you know, for us to find connection, I just, yeah. I really appreciate that.

Hecate: 10:56

Absolutely. And I would love to hear a compliment that you've received and never forgotten.

Alisa: 11:03

Mm. I think the one that really stands out for me is from my best friends when the book came out they all said this separately. They said to me, "I read your book, it sounds exactly like having a conversation with you".

Hecate: 11:18

Nice.

Alisa: 11:19

They were like, I just felt like I was in the room with you talking. And, uh, that's my favorite compliment because as a writer, like the way I write is deeply important to me and part of my identity. Um, but all I ever wanted was my writing to feel like me having a regular schmegular conversation with someone , you know, and being able to translate that into written word. And I was like, fuck yes, I know that like, I achieved what I wanted when multiple besties said that to me.

Hecate: 11:54

It definitely came across and was so, so important to me. And it also made me excited to talk to you for the interview too.'cause it, it feels like having read your book that this is a continuation of a conversation that you weren't actually privy to, but

Alisa: 12:09

No, totally, totally.

Hecate: 12:10

But you know, you know, like a continuation of that.

Alisa: 12:12

I love that.

Hecate: 12:12

So I'm just so excited. But, um, I would love to know, what is your favorite color or color combination and what do you associate with it?

Alisa: 12:21

I love like jewel tones together, like rich purples and greens.

Hecate: 12:26

Mm-hmm.

Alisa: 12:26

I associate it with just, oh my God, it's so funny 'cause I said that and then I just looked at my screensaver and it's this like stunning flower called the Port of Madeira um, that's like all over California, but I've never seen before I moved here, and it's like very purpley and green and kind of neon pink all at the same time. It's dope as hell. And I made it my screensaver, a photo of it I took, and it is literally those colors. It is like purples and then purpley pinks and greens, and I just associate it with like lushness and being alive and vibrancy. Um, I've never been accused of being a wallflower. I've never been accused of, uh, holding back my tongue. Also in the last couple years have really started dressing in a way that makes me feel joyful and like dopamine dressing. I wear a lot of sequins, a lot of bold, beautiful colors, um, that bring me joy. And I think I just want things to feel alive, and that's what feels alive to me.

Hecate: 13:28

Mm-hmm. You mentioning the sequins makes me remember, you at one point posted, uh, like, you know, choose my dress for me for a keynote. And it was all the most magical mermaid, royalty dresses that I have ever seen in my life. I was stunned. They were all so exquisite and gorgeous and it was so just like ecstatic dress. I just, it was beautiful.

Alisa: 13:58

Oh my God, I, that's so funny.'cause I was just thinking like, oh, I should make another video that like, 'cause the collection has grown about like, these are my ladies. Um, because it's like, part of it is like my obsession with Golden Girls.'cause those ladies knew how to wear a sequin for real. The other part is just like, it actually comes from a healing place for me, where I think before I sort of busted out and started doing this work when I was 27, I felt so stifled in so many different ways and feeling like I was trying to conform and fit myself into like a nice little neat package where I wasn't too much trouble and my feelings weren't too big and I wasn't too sensitive, and I was all nice and neat and compact. And then when I came to a, sort of a breaking point in my life and I realized like, I can't, I can't deny myself anymore, including my pain and what I've been through. Um, but also the bigness of my feelings, the bigness of my, like ambitions to reach people, like all of it. I realized like, actually who I am is this person who like really does wanna take up space and really does wanna be bold and loud and not worry about what other people think of me. And I think it really comes from a place of being like, oh, I don't care about other people's comforts over my own needs anymore.

Hecate: 15:32

I love talking about all of that in terms of healing and also color, taking up space, icons, what you're wearing. And it just, I very much relate to it'cause I've been going through my own journey with, I join the many survivors who are healing from eating disorders. And so this has been a big time of transformation for me. And also, just a reckoning of, uh, being in a larger body. Like, you know, getting, getting bigger is a part of healing for me. Taking up more space literally, and, and also figuratively. And then the, the joyous and healing, uh, position that that clothing takes up.

Alisa: 16:14

Mm-hmm.

Hecate: 16:14

And in terms of self-expression, color, or lack of color in my case sometimes. So I've been landing in like a place of Blair Witch meets Miss Frizzle.

Alisa: 16:25

Oh, I love that for you.

Hecate: 16:26

a place that is really just so full of joy and so Yeah. So like probably different, different parts of the spectrum for us both. Um,

Alisa: 16:35

but the same, but like the same heart.

Hecate: 16:37

But the same thing. Yeah, exactly.

Alisa: 16:38

The same heart and the same energy. And sometimes letting your outsides reflect your insides and sometimes letting your outsides be what they are.'cause you know that it'll help change your insides

Hecate: 16:50

mm-hmm.

Alisa: 16:50

Or support your insides, you know?

Hecate: 16:52

Yeah.

Alisa: 16:53

Um, but I really appreciate what you said about learning to take up space physically, you know, in a literal sense.'cause as somebody who lives in a fat and a plus size body, that is something that is like really critical, especially at this time where

Hecate: 17:07

mm-hmm.

Alisa: 17:08

Um, to my utter dismay, the trend of like nineties, like coke, Kate Moss level fitness

Hecate: 17:15

Heroin chic. Yeah.

Alisa: 17:17

Heroin chic is like upon us and I've seen a lot of fat activists online saying variations of the same thing, which is like, it's very much in alignment with fascism to try to control women's bodies, to make them smaller, to make them palatable, to make them controlled. And that in fact, in just being in our bodies and dressing loudly and colorfully and expressively, like that is actually a really critical thing that those of us who feel like that's a part of us can be doing at these times of fascism.

Hecate: 17:53

Mm-hmm.

Alisa: 17:54

Like it is actually important. And I also firmly believe that like. I still struggle, you know, with my body sometimes, especially'cause it changed a lot. I've always lived in a fat body. But, um, it changed a lot after like having a kid. And so that's still something I'm like getting used to, but every time I have a negative thought about my body, I just stop and I ask myself, who benefits from this thought?

Hecate: 18:19

Mm-hmm.

Alisa: 18:20

And it really helps me to like give myself the perspective I need again in those moments where I feel lost about how, like, being raised as a girl in America, you're like socialized since, especially those of us who like grew up when I did at the height of like Weight Watchers and Atkins and all that shit.

Hecate: 18:42

Mm-hmm.

Alisa: 18:42

That like, it is normal and totally acceptable and maybe actually, like, morally superior to spend your time, energy, money, devotion to, um, the act of trying to be thin. And it's a really great way for the patriarchy to keep us very busy, and oppressed, and feeling really negative. It's a very disempowering thing that sort of happens in a larger socialized context. And I'm not speaking about any one person's individual decisions and choices, like everybody is living in a bag of flesh and trying to do their best. Like that is not at all what I am talking about. But like, I mean like the powers that be and the systems and structures we live upon, they support fascism in every conceivable way.

Hecate: 19:36

Yeah, yeah. No, and I love that you name that too, because, and it's so true. When I was, um, starving, uh, I was conforming to those standards of beauty, sure. I was weak. I was unhealthy. I wasn't strong in my body and I wasn't strong in my sense of self. Um, there was this hungry pandering, to want to, you know, conform to something. And even if I didn't understand that that's what was happening, because a lot of the time I didn't. Um, but then there was also, literally, my brain did not have what it needed to function. Like if you, if you aren't getting the nutrition that you need, if you're malnourished,

Alisa: 20:25

your brain doesn't work optimally.

Hecate: 20:26

Your brain doesn't work. Exactly. And so like, if, if women or non-binary people, like if we are, you know, busy, busy, staying thin, we're also malnourished and unable to have the full cognitive power, um, that, that we are like, gifted.

Alisa: 20:47

Absolutely.

Hecate: 20:48

And, and also what's required to efficiently fight fascism or systems of oppression. Um, and so the strength that I have now, once I, you know, I have started really like focusing on healing this, this aspect of my life, like the, the cognitive wherewithal that I have, as well as the ability to stand up from a couch and not just like, almost black out. Like the ability to, to stand up and not fall down. Yes. And then the ability to actually think is so incredible and so, and so important. The the amount of energy that I was spending on trying to be thin or, or quote unquote beautiful. Uh, once I stopped trying to be those things, there's so many more interesting things that I could be, and that has just been this beautiful blossoming and it's still really messy and complicated.

Alisa: 21:42

Yes.

Hecate: 21:43

And, and triggering and upsetting.

Alisa: 21:45

Yes.

Hecate: 21:45

And that's definitely, I don't wanna pretend that that's not still an ongoing thing, but it's so, it's so critical and it's so important and it's so beautiful in its own way.

Alisa: 21:55

I love that.

Hecate: 21:56

But I would love to know, if I had to summon you in a ritual, what five things would I need to place at each point of the pentacle on floor?

Alisa: 22:06

So I would say first a sequin caftan. Uh, because of what we discussed earlier, that is really embodies a huge part of my, like, spirit of myself. The second would definitely be a lock of my dog's hair. His name is Franklin. He's my soul dog. And he and I had the exact same hair. Like when he's sitting on my lap, you literally cannot see where his hair ends and my begins. And so I've always said like, he was my first born. And part of his origin story I always say, is like, I ate a lock of my own hair. And that's how Franklin came to be. So I would have a lock of Franklin's hair, my first child. Um, I would say, what else? Maybe, uh, my beloved, um, record of, uh, Funny Girl of Barbara Streisand doing Funny Girl. Mm-hmm. Um, in the original movie. Um, I just. I love that character. I love her. It's my favorite musical. It really like, speaks to something in me. Um, it speaks to like my Jewish identity as a Jewish woman from the East Coast too in a certain way. And just our kind of humor and stuff. I just, yeah, it really connects to me. And then I would say, um, every single photo of my child that I've ever taken, like my entire camera roll on my phone since he was born in early 2024 would be, um, just like if it's in a folder, then like that folder. And then lastly, what would I say is my fifth, maybe my book. It's so much of my soul. It's really, so much of me and my soul. Um, yeah,

Hecate: 23:58

I love that. And I'd love to know three essentials to your self-care.

Alisa: 24:05

I would say, being present with other people, I'm an extrovert in case you couldn't tell. Um, and so like having human contact and human connection is critical. And since I moved across the country and I'm still like meeting people and trying to create new friendships, I've learned better strategies for like long distance friendships and really like figuring out ways to stay connected to the people that I love so much. And I go so deep with, um, and I think that like my favorite feeling in the world is like being truly known. And when I come back to these friends who've been there with me through everything and vice versa, and the way that, like, we make fun of each other and we bust each other's chops, it's like, such a loving East Coast thing that we do, but, um, but it's just in a way, like you could only be so like hilariously cruel to each other.

Hecate: 25:09

*laughs*

Alisa: 25:09

If you knew them with like every fiber of your being. Like, I'm not even, I've never hurt. I'm like, yes, you understand me so perfectly. And it's just that feeling of being known. So, connecting and having that human connection is really critical for me. I would say a huge part of my self-care, oh, this is what I should have said, is one of my five things, a bottle of Lexapro staying up on my meds. Like,

Hecate: 25:35

I love that.

Alisa: 25:36

For those of us Lexapro girlies, Wellbutrin queens, um, Trazodone buddies, like, these are my drugs. These drugs. This cocktail of medicine I'm on right now has been so effective for me. So just like, take your meds. Take. Your. Meds. And then lastly I would say like touching grass. And I mean that in like the most literal way. I'm really lucky the home we're renting has a backyard and I can just walk on the grass outside. It's like gets coldish in the winter, but not really, 'cause it's California. And so at any given time I can be like walking outside, um, playing with my family in the backyard and just quite literally getting my feet dirty. Um, and it is grounding in every, in every way for me.

Hecate: 26:26

I'm the same. And, as I mean all the things, um, but also, uh, the touching grass and not in, you know, the sarcastic way, but like the, the loving, like please like connect with the earth. You are a part of it. I have befriended my local murder of crows and, um, and so I talk with them and so like, connecting with them and, and like standing in dirt and talking to birds and like, just all of that is so critical for me. Yeah. And, um,

Alisa: 26:58

I love that so much. I really, I really love that. We have a family of goldfinches, um, that we tried to not have them nest, well. One of us tried, the other one me, um, was like, this is their home too. We tried to not have them nest, like actually on our house. They, uh, definitely outsmarted us, um, every single step of the way, which just means simply put like they deserve it. Like we are now their tenants, you know? But. Watching their drama and their, like, love stories and their flirting and dah dah dah dah dah.

Hecate: 27:35

Mm-hmm.

Alisa: 27:35

I'm just like, it's, so, it really helps me bring back like a sense of perspective and, uh, get out of my own head.

Hecate: 27:45

Same, also, like connecting with a passage of time and, um, and, uh, you know, a changing of seasons and yeah, just everything. It's become really important to me. I'm so grateful for you to be here, and to finally get to talk. And I have your, I have your book here and I don't know if you even remember, it was so long ago, but you wrote me this beautiful note in it that. It really brightened my day, when the time finally came and I came to the book and it was time to finally read it and I opened up and, and it was, uh, such a beautiful, like, welcome back to podcasting. So just thank you so much.

Alisa: 28:22

It's such a pleasure to hear, and when I wrote the book, the way that you, um, experienced it is how much I intended it to be experienced, which was kind of this evergreen resource, like a trusted friend who's been down this road who has support and love and laughs to offer you whenever you want it on your terms. Like I say in the beginning of the book, I'm like, read at your own pace. If you read one chapter, put it down for six months, and then randomly choose another chapter to read. Cool. Like, that's how I designed it. You know, there's a chapter on family, there's a chapter on sex, a chapter on friendships, like whatever is showing up for you in your life. You can go read it. You don't have to read it, start to finish. You don't win any like brownie points for, you know, like us overachievers over here. Um,

Hecate: 29:12

yeah,

Alisa: 29:12

we don't get to heal like any faster because we powered through. I love for people to practice sort of what I preach in the book, which is like listening to our bodies and our inner intuition about the pace we are moving and what we need for our healing at any given time. So you like totally modeled that by the way that you experienced the book.

Hecate: 29:34

I so appreciated the way that you broke down the chapters, with this beautiful, like, the untrue story and the true story, and I'm just gonna, because you know, listeners won't know what I'm talking about, but like"chapter one, you are a real survivor". And then under that it says, "untrue story: there is a real survivor out there, and I am not it. But truthfully, our pain is real and worthy of healing". Every single chapter has that untrue story and then that like, here's, here's my check for you. And I loved that because it let me know each chapter, not just what it was about, but then also really on a deeper level, let me know, here's what we're gonna be challenging in this, in this chapter. Here's, here's the actual work that is going that. Like, here's, here's what I'm like poking at and here's what I'm like, like a loving poke. Like, yes, here's what we're actually working on. And that was so helpful for me because this, this was like a really powerful book for me and it's, it's actually one of my favorites that I've ever read for the podcast. I've been doing this,

Alisa: 30:42

like, That's very meaningful to me,

Hecate: 30:43

four or five years or something at this point. And, and I love this book and it was so helpful. So thank you for writing it.

Alisa: 30:51

That's so beautiful to hear. I really, really appreciate that. And it feels so good when the intentions that I had behind how it was structured and written are received and like impact people the way that I hoped it would because it really, to be fair, it's not just me. I had an incredible team of my literary agent and my editor. All three of us are publicly, um, identify as, as survivors. And so it was really a magical team of the three of us. And we were all sort of sharing the same vision of like, let's create the book that all of us needed. And all of us are so frustrated, does not at present exist. The options we have, especially for CSA survivors are so extraordinarily limited. Uh, we get memoir, which is a beautiful art form, but is not self-help and often can be very re-traumatizing for us. I know that's been my experience often.

Hecate: 31:50

Mm-hmm.

Alisa: 31:51

And then we get books like The Body Keeps the Score. These books that are written by psychiatrists or therapists and scientists that kind of treat us, like, I always feel like, like a traumatized lab rat, like something to be studied at an emotional distance that just doesn't feel real. And those books are often all considered like heavy, but important, you know, and they sit on my shelf and I'm like, I should read this because I want, I'm working on my healing. Mm-hmm. And it's the should feeling and like, the sense of obligation, like, it's gonna be really painful, but like, I'm supposed to.

Hecate: 32:27

Mm-hmm.

Alisa: 32:28

And instead, I, I wanted to create what I wanted, which was just something that sounded like the way we talk to each other in the everyday voice that we have and supporting one another in really calling bullshit on all the self blame and self shame we experience as sexual violence survivors, as abuse survivors and then especially as CSA survivors, which is the kind of harm I center. It's the harm I experienced as well. But I've heard from so many people who've experienced other forms of harm who are like, yes, I see myself in all of this. And I really felt like the table of contents was so critical to me.'cause I was like, we have to tell the reader - AKA me, like, a year ago, that this is different. This hits different. Like I know that podcast is a visual medium, but the book is vibrant colors of orange and it's kind of groovy and seventies and alive. And I wanted people to buy the book 'cause they thought it was so beautiful on their bookshelf before they even realized what it was about. I wanted to visually say like, there are no images of broken glass or a child cowering in a shadow. This is about being alive and being messy and vibrant and full. And so from the cover to the way that we wrote the Table of Contents, I was like, I want every single part of this book to signal to whomever is receiving it, that this is different and this hits different and we don't have to be that afraid of opening up its contents. Like I wanna make things as approachable and accessible as possible 'cause I know personally how hard it is to find healing resources that don't make things worse for us.

Hecate: 34:20

Mm-hmm.

Alisa: 34:20

Before they may or may not make things better. And to speak specifically to that first chapter, this idea of like, I'm not a real survivor because of this. Like that was an untrue story that dominated my life. And still in tough times comes back to me of this like, "I'm not a real survivor because I don't have narrative memories of my abuse". Like that's how the sentence finishes for me. But in working with survivors, like truly thousands of survivors from all around the world, what I have learned is nearly every single person I've ever met has a version of that story. Um, it's like something they fill in the blank with. Because I was harmed by a woman, because I might have been drinking, because I don't have evidence, because blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Because I told no one, like, it doesn't matter. I think that the way the world treats people who have experienced sexual abuse and harm is such that everything around us, and too often the people around us reinforce this idea that there is some real survivor out there, but we're not it. There's this mythic survivor who has all the answers to everything and is so blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And so I was like, oh my God. I need to tell people right away that they can read this book like, 'cause none of the other stuff matters what I write. Like, all the other pages don't count for shit if the person picking it up is like, well I don't know if this is for me because this is for quote unquote real survivors.

Hecate: 35:56

Disconnecting themselves from it the whole time it's not going to actually be helpful. It's so true.

Alisa: 36:01

Precisely. And I have felt that way in some survivor spaces, like early on in my healing, where I was like, everybody here remembers their abuse. So like I don't belong here. And that was a really hard space for me to like be in. And so I just wanted to tell people, like, I don't care what language you use to describe what you've been through. I don't care if you have the words or the words change or whatever. Like, I care that you have pain and that it's real and that it matters, and that there is a pathway to reducing, like the shame and blame that we experience to no fault of our own, and that we're all like worthy of beautiful, big, messy, vibrant lives.

Hecate: 36:49

That definitely came across in the book 100%. And the voice that you used to write it was so, was so beautiful and helpful. Like the, the humor and the levity and just the everyday voice. It really. It's, it's why I do this. And just have conversations with other survivors because it does take you just a step away from that overly clinical, um, kind of thing that, that you do find in a lot of the books that are, that are meant for survivors and ultimately, it can be alienating and there is a lot, of useful things in, in not, not that, you know, those books aren't helpful, but you don't feel fully embraced as a human. I love that you said traumatized lab rat, because that is 100% the vibe sometimes and it's, it's hard to connect with yourself as a human being while you are, um, yeah. Feeling, uh, like a statistic while you're reading it.

Alisa: 37:51

Exactly.

Hecate: 37:52

It's really rough. And so feeling like you're maybe just having a really intense heart to heart with a friend, or with a fellow survivor. Those are the conversations that have been the most transformative for me in my own journey. And so I love that you made a book like that. Um,

Alisa: 38:12

so I, I so appreciate you saying that because in addition to my voice, there are 41 other survivors in the book.

Hecate: 38:19

Mm-hmm.

Alisa: 38:19

Everybody including like medical experts, whomever that I interviewed, everybody is a survivor.

Hecate: 38:25

Mm-hmm.

Alisa: 38:26

Because I do think it informs every way, like the way or even spoken, you know, like all of it.

Hecate: 38:31

Mm-hmm.

Alisa: 38:32

It informs everything. But I also wanted to offer the reader like the beautiful, transformative power of being connected with other incredible CSA survivors who have been doing the work for decades. People like Tashmica Torok in Lansing. People like Ignacio Rivera, who I refer to as my sex-pert in the book. These are my friends who have been, I have been learning from for years and they were so generous to like, volunteer their wisdom in these pages. As a public survivor, I get the privilege of knowing that I know so many other survivors and getting to feel like you described like that transformative power of human connection and knowing that that is really actually the thing that is the most powerful. Um, for me, tool to like, um, reducing the shame and blame and feeling like what I want in life is possible. And so I really, I just wanted to bring my amazing friends in so that everybody can get to experience what I've been privileged enough to get to experience.

Hecate: 39:48

Yeah. Well, and I love that you did, um, not only because, professional voices are so, so important, but also, uh. It's, it's so rare that a professional will actually disclose, um, to say a patient, um, 'cause that's what I came across where I would, you know, when working with professionals, I never knew if that person with that degree or with that professional experience, like a psychologist or psychiatrist, uh, actually had any experience with the things that I was going through. And it was inappropriate with, with like a doctor patient relationship to actually ask that, I felt. And that was a huge gap for me. And so I love that this created a moment where not only could I hear from experts, but also experts where I knew that that gap was bridged, that you had lived through something similar to what I had lived through. That you had done your own work, you have done your own research, your own work. You did the degree, but then you've also actually as a human being, understand what I'm going through, because that's something

Alisa: 40:55

precisely

Hecate: 40:56

that I could never get over was, was I, I don't enjoy, I don't enjoy when experts who have no lived experience tell me about what I'm going through. Um,

Alisa: 41:06

Tell you about yourself.

Hecate: 41:07

It was never helpful. Yes.

Alisa: 41:08

Yeah. No, I'm, I'm so there with you and I have to tell you like. My inbox is, is so often filled with therapists and counselors who are CSA survivors who are working with survivors, and they themselves are looking for additional like healing support and resources. And there are so many who go into this work specifically because of that experience. And I can just say anecdotally from so many I've heard from, people I've heard from, is that like, this is also a challenge for them. These like professional barriers that are set up, which are designed to help protect, you know, the client and the patient sometimes are a hindrance. Because really all I think, especially speaking from a, as a CSA survivor, all you wanna know is like, you're not the only one. And

Hecate: 42:01

yeah.

Alisa: 42:03

And like, just to know like. I don't want to know that what happened to me in a sense, or the way I, the way I'm experiencing it as an adult is exceptional. I wanna hear that this is like a completely normal way to respond to something I never should have had to go through. So I really, I really hear you on that.

Hecate: 42:23

I would love to specifically talk about, healing without clear memory.

Alisa: 42:29

For me as a CSA survivor, I do not have clear narrative memory of what happened to me. I have what I would call like body memory or sensory memory. And so what I mean by narrative memory, like if we think of a positive memory, like my day yesterday, I had a lovely day. I'm like, in the beginning I went to the Pilates class and then I like took a shower and then we went to lunch together, da, da, da da. And then it ended at like me, 11 o'clock trying to clean my home. And I can remember like a beginning, a middle, and an end. That's normally how like pretty healthy memories go for us. And then traumatic memory isn't in that like da da da da, linear kind of memory. For a lot of us, it's actually like these sensations. So we think of like, think of like sight, scent, um, like body physical experience, things that we're hearing. Um, and these sort of sensory experiences that um, can make us have like flashbacks back to what we've experienced. The important thing to know about traumatic memory is that we do not get to decide what our brains do in the moment of trauma in order to survive. We don't have control over whether we fight, we run, we freeze, we fawn, and like, you know, try to people please to keep ourselves safe. Like we don't get to decide what those survival responses are. We also don't get to decide how much we do and don't remember. And from my understanding, neuroscientists aren't even in full agreement as to whether or not when a traumatic event happens, especially in childhood, whether or not it's that it's so painful and so overwhelming that our brains in a very sophisticated way, like block it out or choose not to, to resurface it in any way until it's like safe for them to do so, or whether, um, memory is not even created in those moments. And that for those of us who don't remember, or you know, don't have clear memory, it can be that basically our systems and our brains are so overwhelmed with keeping us alive and trying to keep us in a survival place that the processes that are required to happen in order to create a memory are not actually online during those moments of trauma. And there's so many different variations. I know people who like, remember none of their childhood except for the abuse. I know people who remember everything, but they don't remember that. I know people who are like me who are like, you know what, everything is just a real mess up there. It's just a lot of mush, you know? And, and everything in between. I knew a set of adult twins who, um, had both been abused by the same person when they were children. One twin remembered it perfectly, one twin remembered nothing. And I do think like that sort of, um, illustrates really clearly how we don't have control over what happens and these are completely normal responses of our brains going through things they never should have gone through, especially during childhood. Although this can happen during adult traumatic events as well.

Hecate: 46:09

Mm-hmm.

Alisa: 46:09

So that's sort of the first thing I wanna explain about how traumatic memory can work. When I first started wanting to share my stories publicly and started the website, Healing Honestly, I felt fraudulent and I felt like, oh my God, I'm starting to get traction. People from around the world are reading me and none of them know that like, at night I'm like, oh shit, I'm a total fraud. And they're gonna find out because I don't remember my abuse clearly. For me, you know of the who, what, when, where, why? Like, I got like one of 'em. You know, like, and I thought, oh no, like I have to disclose this. I feel like I'm being so dishonest. So I wrote this story in 2017, called effectively like, what it's like to not remember your CSA. And I thought it was like this confession and I was going to lose my readers. And what happened was the complete and total opposite, and people were like, oh my God, this is me as well. And like, I thought I was the only one and I thought I was crazy. And then a year later, sort of the height of the Me Too movement, the piece a year later went viral because so many people were being triggered by what they were seeing in the news every day that they were Googling like, "is it possible that I don't remember my CSA or that I'm remembering it now in adulthood?" And so, what was really interesting from that experience was that, the thing that I thought isolated me and the thing that I thought made my story exceptional in a isolating way ended up being the most important thing I could say. That like brought about the most incredible like community and connection that I could have ever imagined. And so the vast majority of my online readers have come to me because they themselves are survivors of childhood harm and they don't have clear memories about it. So when I came to writing the book, I was like, oh my God, not only do I need to write about traumatic memory, it needs to be like very high on the list. Like it needs to be the second chapter of the book, which I believe it is either the second or the third chapter.

Hecate: 48:25

Mm-hmm.

Alisa: 48:26

I started real high there because I was like, again, just like with the first chapter being about like "there's some real survivor out there and I'm not it", I was like, same thing with traumatic memory. People are gonna be like, I can't read this book. This book isn't for me because I don't remember my abuse clearly. That is literally what has stopped me from reading so many books that people have told me might be helpful for me. So I was like, not only do we gotta talk about it, we gotta talk about it like, ASAP. And so within the chapter, I tell the story of, you know, the lie of False Memory Syndrome, which is a made up non-scientific term, literally made up by the parents of adult,

Hecate: 49:07

I wanted to talk about this so bad. I'm so glad you, I, I like, I literally, I had it in my notes. Was was like FMSF in parentheses. WTF.

Alisa: 49:18

Yeah, exactly. And so it's funny 'cause a friend who is very like, prominent online and is like, Alisa, if I have to go another week without seeing you make content about False Memory Syndrome, I am going to scream like, you have to talk about this more. People.

Hecate: 49:36

It blew my mind.

Alisa: 49:37

People need to know.

Hecate: 49:37

Yeah. No, it recontextualized my entire, like, I I

Alisa: 49:41

Everything you've experienced.

Hecate: 49:43

38.

Alisa: 49:44

Yeah.

Hecate: 49:44

Like, and, and I've been healing from this for like multiple decades and no one

Alisa: 49:49

Precisely

Hecate: 49:50

has told me about this and it re-contextualized everything. Please say more, do you think? What is this?

Alisa: 49:59

Okay. I'm laughing because it's so true for so many of us, and I'm laughing also because it is such an absolutely absurd like cuckoo banana story that sounds like there's no way this is real. Okay. So, the False Memory Syndrome Foundation, which no longer exists, but did for 30 years, was founded I believe in 1991 by the Freyds. They were a married couple, he was a mathematician, she was a school teacher, and they had an adult child, Jennifer Freyd, who is, side note, to to bring it all full circle, an extremely prominent and critical researcher and academic and expert around traumatic memory and sexual violence. She, herself is the person who created the term DARVO: Deny, Attack, and Reverse Victim and Offender- which is the way we all now understand, it's literally a textbook term for the way abusers respond to allegations against them. They're her parents and she, as an adult recovers like an understanding of through body memories and other resurfaced, um, symptoms that her father had sexually abused her. And she went to her parents to confront him. And this was a private thing. She wasn't looking for anything. She was just sort of speaking her truth. And not only did they deny it, they accused her therapist of basically like planting these ideas in her mind. And so they started the False Memory Syndrome Foundation and they made up a diagnosis called False Memory Syndrome that has no scientific backing whatsoever, um, has never been like, you know, had any sort of study, any sort of scientific methodology around it to demonstrate that this is like a thing at all. It is a political diagnosis used by parents of adult CSA survivors to deny their children's claims of sexual violence by them. So all these other parents joined in the movement, all of whom had been accused by their adult children of CSA. And together, along with some choice psychologists, created this organization specifically designed to discredit CSA survivors who were coming forward in adulthood. And so let's just let that sink in. So there is this diagnosis that like all of us have heard things about like, oh, maybe they're false memories and stuff. The root of that entire concept has nothing to do with science and has everything to do with parents who sexually abused their children trying to discredit their child. And a key part of their strategy was to discredit therapists because we know one of the critical tools for CSA survivors is talk therapy, and it's through talk therapy a lot of us come to have a deeper understanding of what we may have experienced in childhood. And so it was a way for them to sort of be like, our kids are brainwashed by these therapists. There's an article in the, in the New York magazine that came out just a couple years ago called the Memory Wars, about like this really dark time in the like, therapy world where people were divided on this and it got quite nasty. I know that the therapists and survivors who wrote the Courage to Heal back, you know, 30 years ago, which was a textbook resource to support CSA survivors. One of the very few things out there, they themselves got so much hell from the False Memory Syndrome Foundation for recognizing that this is one of the ways adult CSA survivors experience their trauma. Okay, so I know this sounds all very conspiratorial, but get this, before the False Memory Syndrome Foundation came to be, in the news and in articles when they would report on CSA survivors and recovered memory, it was just sort of written about as this, like understanding that that is like something that happens. There was no asterisk being like, "well, maybe the recovered memories are real or not". Like there, there was none of that. There was no like inherent desire to not believe CSA survivors in that particular way and what started happening is that members of the False Memory Syndrome Foundation would call up journalists and writers who were reporting on anything having to do with recovered memory and CSA and tell them about the fake diagnosis of False Memory Syndrome. And then all of a sudden we start to see all of this news and media coverage talking about False Memory Syndrome and discrediting survivors in public spaces. There's actually been studies done run by Catherine Beckett, who at the time was at my alma mater, the University of Michigan, that really captured like, the impact of this was astronomical. They were wildly, wildly successful at what they did. And I can say that also because I have therapists who are readers of mine, who've been practicing for decades and they're like, "I am a therapist, I am a psychiatrist, I am an expert, and I myself did not know how bullshit False Memory Syndrome is." And yeah, you can have false memories. Like I thought I parked my car on the third floor. Oh wait, I parked it on the second floor. I can't find where I left my phone. Like I thought I left it here. I didn't leave it there. But there is no condition for which the human mind makes up that they were sexually abused. Who the hell would do that? No one would do that. And that's not a thing. And so, yeah, it sounds conspiratorial, but that's because it was a conspiracy.

Hecate: 56:46

It's wild.

Alisa: 56:47

And the only reason they disbanded is because the Freyds got really fucking old and they just felt like they couldn't run it anymore. So they never actually had to reckon with the harm that they have created over all of these years, the harm that they have done to therapists, the harm that they have done to survivors.

Hecate: 57:07

Mm-hmm.

Alisa: 57:07

But even more so, the harm that they continue to do by just simply offering to people that this is a possibility that like a survivor coming forward could just be being brainwashed by their therapist or have, you know, quote unquote False Memory Syndrome. And even if we know it's bullshit, right, it still impacts us all the time because not everybody around us knows that it's bullshit.

Hecate: 57:38

Mm-hmm.

Alisa: 57:39

So we are often dealing with people's own like internalized shame and self blame at survivors because of the lasting impact of this organization. And so I just, I cannot overstate how absolutely devastatingly harmful they have been for all CSA survivors. Personally, I can speak to it. When I came forward, that was exactly the line of attack that my abuser took. He was like, she's been brainwashed by her therapist. It's her therapist. Like she doesn't know from which she speaks. And so I personally have also experienced the direct impact of what these parents who came together, who themselves had sexually abused their children or had been complicit in that harm and what they chose to do instead of taking accountability for their actions.

Hecate: 58:36

Yeah. Which was poison society at large. With what we just talked about in terms of memory and then just to make it again, abundantly clear that it is completely normal for memory to be fuzzy or absent, and then it's completely normal for survivors to come forward later in life or years later, however long, that that gap is normal and to instill in culture, society, media, everywhere, in survivor's own brains, um, that the idea that that gap means that a survivor is unreliable or that memory is unreliable, is so poisonous and kind of evil, and is perpetuating harm. I love that you broke it down in terms of media because I started seeing my entire just childhood as well in a different way. There were episodes of much beloved TV shows that had made no sense to me growing up and even watching them now as an adult, I, you know, like there's an entire episode of, I'm gonna nerd out here - of Star Trek Voyager, uh, with Seven of Nine who is like, uh, a Borg who was removed from the collective. And there's an entire episode where, she recovers a memory of assault, and she reports it, and then it's an entire episode about how, that was actually made up. Uh, and that memory was fake and it made no sense. It, it had nothing to do with anything but just was an entire episode where we just took the time to talk about the fact that like recovered traumatic memory, was unreliable and that like, that people coming forward with it, like shouldn't just be trusted. Uh, and that was such a weird thing to do that I have never understood, and now I understand that that was probably a seed planted.'cause it was, I think going on in the nineties, that was literally somebody probably made a call like from FMSF to, to be like, you know, you have this character that is like recovering identity and trauma and here's something that I wanna make you aware of. That's probably literally a conversation that took place.

Alisa: 1:01:00

Oh, for sure.

Hecate: 1:01:00

Like, I can't say that for sure, but like, like looking at the stats that you gave, I was like, oh gosh.

Alisa: 1:01:06

Yeah. It's like definitely, you're exactly right. Like it's nothing we can prove, but all the logic is there, right? The work is all there, which is, you know, I guess to give them credit, the, the foundation knew that, like the court of public opinion was how you oppress survivors, and they knew that, and so they didn't have any science backing up their claims, right? They didn't need that. Also, it wasn't possible because it's not a thing. But their strategy was to fight this in the court of public opinion. And that to me is what has the lasting legs. Now, all these decades later, all of those seeds have been planted. Yeah. And we have our work really cut out for us in offering the counter narrative and the truth around that.

Hecate: 1:01:57

Something else that you talked about. I love that you addressed it 'cause it's a huge pet peeve of mine is actually this really messed up message of, "you have to love yourself before anyone can love you". And you talked about that and you talked about body neutrality. And so I wanted to take a moment to talk about, um, that that really, that messed up message, it's really insidious as well, like, especially currently in like the, the wellness sphere of, of things. And so you addressed it beautifully and I just wanted to take a minute to, to again just kind of say fuck that and why.

Alisa: 1:02:38

I love that. I love the way you frame that. I believe that a lot of Instagram platitudes are not only not useful for us in our healing, but also can be actively harmful for us in our healing. And my favorite, least favorite one is, um, that you have to love yourself before somebody is going to love you. It reads to me like a threat. Like I don't find anything inspiring about it. It's like you better fucking love yourself, or nobody's gonna love you, and you. Like, okay, so love that vibe.

Hecate: 1:03:16

You're unlovable until you love yourself, like, what?

Alisa: 1:03:20

Yep. Yep. I, I love those stakes. You know, like nothing helps bring self-compassion, like having those stakes and a threat behind it. I mean, like, this is honestly something that I heard. Um, a writer I absolutely adore Aminatou Sow, um. Aminatou and Ann Friedman were the hosts of the late great podcast Call Your Girlfriend, that like literally raised me. Aminatou said, some of us don't have the neurotransmitters required to love ourselves. And that was like a really eye opening thing for me.

Hecate: 1:03:59

Yeah.

Alisa: 1:04:00

Because it's like, yeah, bitch. Like some of us, just like the chemicals in our brain are not balanced accordingly for that like abundant level of self-love. And so I think the stakes are far too high. Like self-love is an admirable goal. An admirable aspiration, but I think.

Hecate: 1:04:24

Yeah, must be nice.

Alisa: 1:04:24

I mean, it must be really nice, but like, you know, and I see this coming from somebody who has always suffered from high self-esteem. And so I'm like being self-aware about this too. Like, I've always thought very highly of myself.

Hecate: 1:04:38

That's awesome.

Alisa: 1:04:40

Um, but I don't think that has changed like, whether people find me lovable or not, or I like fucking hope not. Um, it's more about me like being an Aries queen and being like, you know what I mean? Just like wanting attention and being like Tinkerbell and being like, clap for me or I'll die. Um, but anyway, I digress. Um, so. I just thought I, I actually, all that said that is actually not true. I really internalized a lot of that has to do,

Hecate: 1:05:15

I actually need a minute. I'm like fucking dead. God. Oh my God. Thank you. Okay. Sorry.

Alisa: 1:05:24

You get me loose on a Sunday morning.

Hecate: 1:05:26

Good. I'm good.

Alisa: 1:05:27

You get me, you get me unfiltered on a Sunday morning.

Hecate: 1:05:31

No, I love it. It, I appreciate it. I'm into it.

Alisa: 1:05:33

As though I have filters any other day of the week, which is like real talk. Um, okay. So this bullshit story actually did really impact me, especially when I was like in my young twenties back in DC trying to date, which like, what a hellscape. But um. I was also struggling with really coming to terms for the first time about my own CSA and trying to establish boundaries, um, with the person that harmed me, and ultimately realizing that like what I needed for my own healing and safety was to like sever ties. But there was still like a great deal of shame and self blame around that. And I remember literally sitting on the floor of my basement apartment crying to the bestie being like, "I have so many daddy issues, nobody is ever gonna like, wanna be with me or I like, can't have a healthy relationship". And I realized in that moment, or she really helped me realize in that moment that one, dating is impossible. And so like, let's just put it in perspective of like, what I was trying to do is not something like, that's like easy breezy for everybody else and just like uniquely challenging for me, but also that she made me realize like what I was actually feeling was other people's shame that I was holding onto my own. Like literally the term daddy issues is us, um, like blaming the victim, right? Like it's reversed. Like, like not only did this person harm you, but now you're like, damaged goods and nobody's gonna want that. And like, so not only did you have a shit childhood, but now guess what? In adulthood you also get to have like none of the love and healthy relationships that you've dreamed of. Like, you're welcome! And so I just like, I just felt like it can't be right that we are like fated to not having the love and relationships that we desire because we still struggle with something that happened to us that was never our fault, that we had no control over happening to us. It's just like, those things cannot be true together.

Hecate: 1:07:46

Mm-hmm.

Alisa: 1:07:46

Like life is unfair, but it can't be like that.

Hecate: 1:07:49

Mm-hmm.

Alisa: 1:07:51

And, and it's sort of a way that we, uh, are being punished through the rest of our lives for what happened at us in our childhood.

Hecate: 1:08:02

Yeah.

Alisa: 1:08:03

And so to me, the goal stopped being about like self-love because that just seemed, I didn't even know what that meant because how like to, to love myself. Like how can I love the parts of me that are having flashbacks all the time? How can I love the parts of me that have nightmares? How can I love the parts of me that are getting triggered during sex? Like, how am I supposed to love that? And I found it almost like, am I supposed to find some silver lining in my abuse and be like, "That's okay! It's all of me and it's all made me who I am today!" Like, no. And so I started realizing like self-acceptance was a much more useful framework for me, which is not that I do not love the parts of me that are traumatized. I do not love having CPTSD. I do not love that like, now as a parent, I am still having to go back and heal from shit that I thought I had healed from 10 years ago that is like resurfacing again. I do not love any of that. In fact, I tremendously resent it. Right? Like it's so unfair what we go through, but I also accept that that is the results of something that happened to me that was not my fault.

Hecate: 1:09:24

Mm-hmm.

Alisa: 1:09:25

And so, and I don't try to deny that parts of me are traumatized. Right?

Hecate: 1:09:31

Yeah.

Alisa: 1:09:31

I accept that I'm somebody living with trauma and this is what that looks like.

Hecate: 1:09:37

Yeah.

Alisa: 1:09:38

So in offering myself that framework of acceptance, I just felt like there was so much more space to be a human being. Like, I'm not trying to find a silver lining on anything. I'm not trying to change myself. I'm not trying to deny anything. I'm just like, yes, I am a mentally ill bitch with like a great rack and a sparkling personality and a fat ass and a killer sense of humor. And like all of these things are true, and a gorgeous, gorgeous list of prescriptions that support me through my life. You know, like all of that is true. And, and so yeah, I, and I do think that that has helped support me in all of my relationships, romantic or not, because I think when we are able to practice some level of like radical acceptance within ourselves, we are modeling that for other people too, and giving them space to also like. Honor all the aspects of who they are.

Hecate: 1:10:40

Beautifully said,

Alisa: 1:10:41

Thank you.

Hecate: 1:10:42

And uh, and I loved that you, that you addressed all of that, like really just upfront in, in the book. It's so, it's so messy.

Alisa: 1:10:50

It's a fucked up thing.

Hecate: 1:10:51

It is!, thank you!

Alisa: 1:10:53

It's fucked up thing.

Hecate: 1:10:53

It's just so fucked up.

Alisa: 1:10:54

That other people project on onto us.

Hecate: 1:10:56

Every time I see it I'm like, I'm, I'm like, I mean, survivors aside, like, who is this fucking helping? Like I just, it's so alienating. It's, it's, uh, it's not making space for humanity

Alisa: 1:11:07

But also, dude, don't you also think like it's victim blamey too? Because if you think about it,

Hecate: 1:11:12

It is.

Alisa: 1:11:13

Like think about you have a garbage relationship. Somebody treats you like garbagio because that happens often. People can be abusive and terrible.

Hecate: 1:11:22

Yeah.

Alisa: 1:11:22

And then instead of being like, damn, that person was fucking monstrous.

Hecate: 1:11:27

Mm-hmm.

Alisa: 1:11:27

And like, thank God, like, I am no longer with this person and I'm gonna focus on like, healing from this.'cause it really messed me up. Instead you're like, oh, "I ended up in this abusive relationship because I did not love myself enough". Like, what the fuck?

Hecate: 1:11:45

No, exactly. It's a weird cycle and it, and it just, uh, it ends up like feeding into all this messed up stuff.

Alisa: 1:11:52

Yes.

Hecate: 1:11:53

I hate it. I hate it so much. I'm just so glad that you,

Alisa: 1:11:57

I'm actually like,

Hecate: 1:11:57

whenever I come across someone who just talks about it, I'm like, oh, thank God.

Alisa: 1:12:01

It's really cool that you asked me about that because like, I don't, I've done so many interviews since the book came out two years ago, and I don't think a single person has ever highlighted that. And

Hecate: 1:12:12

Oh,

Alisa: 1:12:12

and, uh, and so I fucking love that you, you brought that up. Um, and I love how you were like, yeah, anytime somebody says that or like, have to pounce, I feel that way about when anybody talks about how like, like question mark around being at a wedding and somebody's vows discussing unconditional love. Like that is my, like I hear, I'm like, what, what does anybody else, like, does anybody else stop and think about like,

Hecate: 1:12:39

Oh, I have conditions.

Alisa: 1:12:39

Fucking unconditional love? My love a hundred percent has conditions. I have worked ages to establish those conditions.

Hecate: 1:12:47

Yes!

Alisa: 1:12:48

And they're not going anywhere, like

Hecate: 1:12:51

100%. I love that. Yeah. And it's, and it's just like, I understand what they mean.

Alisa: 1:12:57

Totally.

Hecate: 1:12:57

But I, I love the vows. Like, and it's, it's happened once in a blue moon. I don't go to that many weddings. Um, 'cause I am like a hermit that lives in a hole. Um, but, uh, but every so often I happen to be related to somebody who will like, get married. But I love the vows where, they will take the time to talk about what they mean by unconditional love and like actually create the container for that.

Alisa: 1:13:20

Yes. Let's spell it out!

Hecate: 1:13:22

And actually, just alter the vows to, to be like, here's what my promises are, and they're actually boundaries.

Alisa: 1:13:28

Mm-hmm.

Hecate: 1:13:29

You know, for like, respect and you know, like, like what honoring each other actually means. It doesn't mean obedience. I've actually been at like a wedding where it was like, here's what, like I will never do X, Y, Z, also just like this implicit thing of just sort of like, kind of like worked in, in a beautiful way.'cause it was like wedding vows, but, but like, here's what will sever the bond. Like,

Alisa: 1:13:52

Totally.

Hecate: 1:13:53

I'll never do this to you. Like, you know, like, and, and not like in a dark way, but just sort of like, these are the terms, like, and this is what, uh, what I wanna create with you and what I wanna have for you. And, and that is conditional. Like, you know, I accept you for who you are. I love you for who you are. Um, and here's, here's what we will do together. Um, and

Alisa: 1:14:17

Totally

Hecate: 1:14:17

at the point that we no longer like, can have that or create that together or if these, these terms are violated, then these, these vows, you know, will be dissolved. Like, you know, and actually like saying that is so much more powerful than just being like, unconditional love. I'm like,

Alisa: 1:14:34

Absolutely.

Hecate: 1:14:34

Oh shit. You like, you're actually like having a human relationship, and a healthy one.

Alisa: 1:14:39

In front of everyone.

Hecate: 1:14:39

And, and when we actually model that, it's so much more powerful than just the bullshit. Um,

Alisa: 1:14:45

I agree. Yeah. I totally agree.

Hecate: 1:14:47

So I wanna ask, what has been the most challenging for you, or what have you struggled with the most in your healing?

Alisa: 1:14:55

I think what I've struggled with the most in my healing has been isolation. And I really thought that I was the only one who had all these body memories and these flashbacks and these nightmares who didn't remember clearly what happened to them, and that it was my fault that I felt that way. And for me, like creating community and human connection has been the most powerful way to not only like combat that self blame and self shame, but to actually like come to a place of understanding myself and having like a deep well of compassion for what I have been through. And I really wanted to create that with this book. Like to me, I thought about all the barriers we have to having that kind of human connection. It can require us to break our anonymity. It can require us to show up in a physical space, like a support group, and perhaps also hear stories that are really re-traumatizing for us. It might have us watch a documentary that might be like quite challenging and loaded for us. So I thought about all of these barriers we can have to just like having that connection. And I really wanted this book to feel like that kind of human connection and getting that experience of community, but within the safety of your own space. Because I know that that was like the most important thing for me in dealing with that challenge. So whatever we remember or don't remember right now about what we've been through is enough for us to continue on our healing journey. To me, you know, healing means different things to different people, but what healing really means to me is a deep knowing that what happened to us wasn't our fault, and we are not to blame neither for what happened to us, nor for what we had to do in order to survive to get to this moment. And healing to me is about learning to listen to that innate inner wisdom, that body wisdom, those intuitions, gut feelings, to learn, to hear them, to listen to them, and to make decisions in our lives based on them. I really believe that because when we experience things like CSA. Especially because the harm happens when we're so young. We learn, you know, implicitly and explicitly that the information that our brains are giving us, like we're not okay that this person is unsafe, this, that, and the other. We are having that like, denied and negated for us constantly being like,"Oh no, this person actually loves you. This person is actually like, the most important person in your life". Or, "No, like, don't be so angry. Don't be so sensitive". Like we are constantly receiving from on a, like on a mental, intellectual level, not to trust our innate wisdom within ourselves. And to me, healing is about saying like, okay brain, you've done enough. Now I'm going to reconnect with that innate wisdom and start making decisions accordingly. And that can be as small as like. I'm gonna pay attention to when I'm hungry or when I'm thirsty and I'm gonna eat when I'm hungry and I'm gonna drink, like, hydrate when I'm thirsty. You know, to decisions, like I'm gonna make a decision about whether or not I'm going to be present at this function based on what my innate wisdom is telling me that I need for my safety and healing. And none of that is contingent upon having more knowledge or more facts about what we've been through. And that is quite different than wanting those things. It is the most natural thing in the world to want to have that knowledge. It is the least that are owed for what we have been through. And I know that other people can also treat us shitty because we don't know that stuff. So like, if you are listening to this and being like, Ah, bitch, I just wanna know! Like, dude, same. And I totally understand and I see you. And also, healing is a hundred percent available to you with the information that you have in this moment.

Hecate: 1:19:26

Thank you so much for just straight up saying that because it's something I think a lot of us struggle with, even if we aren't even able to necessarily just like, put our finger on that every time. And I loved that you talked about intuition and uh, and if we had more time, I would 100% just like, jump on that and talk more about it because, um, yeah, like survivor stuff and intuition and, and like that disruption. Yeah,

Alisa: 1:19:50

That's a good word choice. Disruption is a really good word choice for that.

Hecate: 1:19:54

I'm always interested to hear more about people's, uh, you know, evolving relationship with intuition as they heal. Where have you found strength and support?

Alisa: 1:20:03

I found a lot of strength and support through the people who love me, especially through my chosen family. When the harm happens with our family of origin, it can be really challenging because we treat CSA as an issue between two people, like an interpersonal problem, but it's not. It is political. It is structural. It is institutional.

Hecate: 1:20:27

Mm-hmm.

Alisa: 1:20:27

And it absolutely impacts the entire family whether or not the harm happened within the family. Because by nature of you being a child, there were people in your family who were responsible for protecting you, who are unable to. And so, a lot of times I find like with my healing, that I really needed that healing and that healing work to be separate from my family of origin. And I'm really lucky because many members of my biological family have chosen to go on their own healing journeys and become extraordinarily supportive of me, and now become a wonderful resource from strength and guidance and love. Like you see, you know, my mother's words throughout the book, which is so incredible. But for me it was really about finding friends who saw me, and understood me, and loved me, and who weren't afraid of my big feelings and didn't run and hide, and even if they didn't know what to say or what to do or how to respond, they didn't let me be alone. You know, like, um, whether it was like baking a cake and bringing it over and being like, I don't know what to say to you, but you're lying on this floor and I'm gonna put a cake next to your face. You know?

Hecate: 1:21:44

I loved that you took the time to like, to, to talk about how the different ways that different people showed up for you and how it looked completely different based on that person, but, but just that love and that support and that being there looking different for different friends. And the cake thing. Yeah.

Alisa: 1:22:00

Totally. I like, I, you know, like whether or not you're a believer in love languages, I don't think very much about them one way or the other, but I do think that is helpful with our friendships. Just sort of use a framework like that to be like,

Hecate: 1:22:12

mm-hmm.

Alisa: 1:22:12

Okay. Different people show friendship love, and express it differently. And it's really beautiful when we can take a step back and be like, you know what? You might not be the friend who I'm gonna tell 'em like the details of my nightmare about, or whatever. But like, you are the friend who is gonna be like, super down. If I show up for us to like eat takeout and watch Netflix and like I've been crying and you can see it and you don't really care. Like, as in, you're not gonna be like,"it's weird that you're so emotional".

Hecate: 1:22:44

Yeah.

Alisa: 1:22:44

You know, because then once upon a time, like I would've hid away and isolated because my emotions felt really raw. And I would wait until I could like put a face on and keep it together. And through these friendships I'm like, oh no dope. Like I can still leave the house and have the human connection I desire. And like this friend isn't gonna think one thing, like one way or the other. She's just gonna be like, yep, that's my friend.

Hecate: 1:23:09

Yeah. Come as you are.

Alisa: 1:23:11

Come as you are. And like that is where real strength for me comes from.

Hecate: 1:23:15

Yeah. I have two more questions.

Alisa: 1:23:19

Sure.

Hecate: 1:23:19

One of them is actually yours and I might, uh, I might paraphrase, but I loved a question that showed up at the end of your book and it was, how do you know you're healing?

Alisa: 1:23:31

Way to throw my question back at me. Nobody's done that before! Sneaky. Sneaky. I love that. Yeah. I think there are lots of different ways to answer that depending on who we are.'cause, um. I think for example, when I used to have the idea of like, am I healing, it was like, okay, well am I not being triggered during sex? Am I not being triggered when I hear these particular songs? Am I not being triggered when like I hear from X, Y, and Z? And that was a really fast way for me to be very hard on myself and to feel like garbage because part of what we talked about with like the radical acceptance is trying as best as I can, and it's hard some days, to accept that because of something that happened to me that wasn't my fault, I will to some extent live with variations of triggers for the rest of my life. And it doesn't mean they'll stay the same in frequency or in intensity or in any other nature. Like they'll change and evolve as I change and evolve. But using that as a barometer for like, "am I doing my healing work?" was a really fast way for me to feel like total garbagio very often. And so instead I have tried to look for actually positive things as indicators, not the absence of negatives.

Hecate: 1:24:58

Yeah.

Alisa: 1:24:59

But the, but the active presence of positive as indicators of my healing. So for me, that can be like, having a disagreement with my husband and being able to respond from a place of healing instead of a place of hurt. So instead of if my reaction would be to be like really viscerally defensive to go on the attack because of blah, blah blah or whatever, to be able to like take a breath, and reflect, and be like, oh shit, I was wrong. Oh no. Like that probably feels terrible for him. I'd probably say something. Do you know what I mean? Like being able to take a breath and have a perspective of like growth and maturity is to me a sign of my healing work.

Hecate: 1:25:51

Mm-hmm.

Alisa: 1:25:52

Being able to be present for people like that is a sign of my healing work. I think being able to listen to my body and recognize my body's wisdom is a sign of my healing work. Like last week I woke up Monday with strep throat. I was like, I know it's strep throat. I'm one of those weirdos who like gets strep throat all the time through adulthood. It's just like. My, my blessing. Um, and I was like, I know it. I need to get meds. I need to rest hard for 24 hours, and then I know I'm gonna be okay. But if I power through right now, or I delay because like the doctors expect me to wait longer before I go, like I know what will happen. Just like these little decisions.

Hecate: 1:26:34

Mm-hmm.

Alisa: 1:26:34

Where I'm like, no, I actually know what's happening in my body and what my body needs and I'm not gonna let my brain override that right now. That is when I know that I've been working on my healing and that it's been making impacts in my life. Every time I have something compassionate and loving to say to myself about my own body, and what it's been capable of, and what it has done, and all the things it's allowed me to do, that is a sign of my healing. It's not about these things that are actually like fully beyond our control, like the way other people behave, or whether or not triggers happen, or anything like that. For me, it's about learning to have space inside of myself to, to ask myself, like, how do I wanna show up at this moment? How do I wanna respond to this person? What kind of friend do I wanna be in this moment? What kind of parent do I wanna be in this moment?

Hecate: 1:27:27

Mm-hmm.

Alisa: 1:27:28

What kind of relationship do I wanna have with myself in this moment? And it's not perfect and it's messy all the time, but it's also real.

Hecate: 1:27:38

I love what you said about, defining it by the presence or the growth of something rather than the absence of something. And that is, um. So real for me. And so challenging and

Alisa: 1:27:51

So challenging

Hecate: 1:27:52

And yeah. So that's, that's, that's something we can all chew on, um, in, in a very real way. Thank you.

Alisa: 1:27:59

I love that. I love that. Thank you for saying that.

Hecate: 1:28:01

Um, and I had, I had hoped to, um, to find the time to talk more about, uh, your parenting journey and some of the triggers that are coming up and, and how you're navigating that. But you are starting to talk about that on your, your online platforms. And so I really want to encourage everyone to follow you there, especially if you are a survivor who is either thinking about becoming a parent or, or like new on your parent journey, or even just looking to change your relationship with like being a parent. And maybe think about, uh, new ways to kind of manage triggers that might be coming up for you. Find Alisa. Go to the links! Follow!

Alisa: 1:28:44

You can find everything on HealingHonestly.com or like Healing Honestly and Alisa on any platforms. And just to speak to like the Parenthood piece really briefly, my child is only 15 months old, so I am still very much a new parent and learning a lot of things in a new way. And there's no part of me that is like prescriptive or giving any sort of directions. But for me, again, what has been such a lifeline is to have other friends who are CSA survivors

Hecate: 1:29:15

Mm-hmm.

Alisa: 1:29:15

Who have children that are a little bit older or a lot older than mine, who are helping me get through this moment and guide through this moment. And more than anything, they're helping me to recognize that the triggers I have are completely normal, and to not feel hard on myself or lack in compassion for myself, but instead to like come from a deep understanding and love within myself. And I wanna specifically shout out Tashmica Torok of the now sundown Firecracker Foundation in Lansing. Um, she's really incredible. She, um, has parented, is continuing to parent these really, really cool kids. And she's been really like a lifeline for me when I have felt lost. I think, you know, I, I knew it could be triggering like so many people told me. Especially when you get to the age where your child was harmed. Um. But having other people there, uh, is like super critical. And so I've started to post and talk about it because I just wanna be able to offer people the thing that has helped me the most.

Hecate: 1:30:19

Thank you. And in closing, is there anything that you would like to say to the survivors who are listening?

Alisa: 1:30:26

I just wanna say, I see you. I see you, and I see how hard you are trying, and I see how hard you are working, and I see how much you want for your life. And I feel your fear around what this trauma can take from us. And I just want you to know that your pain is real and it matters, and that wherever you are in this moment, healing is available to you. Um, and you can start by just simply listening to your body today and then making decisions based on what it tells you. But more than anything, you are not alone in this, and you deserve everything you want and more. Um, and yeah, that I really, I really believe we are capable of the messy, colorful, vibrant lives that we all so richly deserve.

Hecate: 1:31:25

Thank you so much. Like, I'm so, so grateful for, for you, for, for what you've, what you've created and brought to the world, and what you continue to bring to the world. And I'm so grateful for the time that you've made and for coming here, for talking to me. And also again for your patience in waiting like a year for this. Like you were pregnant when we did our test call and now you're, you have a child and so,

Alisa: 1:31:50

Sure do!

Hecate: 1:31:51

thank you you so much.

Alisa: 1:31:53

But like, I, I think, you know, I just wanna use that as an example of the way healing works. It's non-linear, it's on its own timeline, but sometimes the timing is what is needed, even if we can't understand it in the moment. We can trust that we are moving exactly how we need to be moving. And, and that's truly the last thing I wanna say to survivors is that you are the expert in your safety and your healing and your wellbeing. And that you not only get to, but need to be the person who gets to direct each step along the way. What each of us needs in our healing is going to be really different.

Hecate: 1:32:38

Mm-hmm.

Alisa: 1:32:39

And it changes over time. So as best as we can honor the fact that we are the experts in our own safety and healing, we will continue down the path, each step of the way.

Hecate: 1:32:53

Perfectly said and so, so real. Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you to the ends of the earth. I'm so deeply grateful for you showing up, like, for being so, so wonderfully you, so authentic, so raw. Like I love that we got like unfiltered and, and also just, um, you are an absolute gem and I'm so glad that you are doing what you do in the world and that you exist. And thank you for, for coming here and existing with me and

Alisa: 1:33:22

Oh my gosh.

Hecate: 1:33:23

Like talking to me like this. Thank you.

Alisa: 1:33:24

Thank you so much. And, and this has been one of the most intentional and thoughtful interviews I've ever experienced.

Hecate: 1:33:31

Thank you.

Alisa: 1:33:31

And I just want you to know that, that like,

Hecate: 1:33:33

Oh my God, thank you.

Alisa: 1:33:35

That I, I like truly feel that in my bones. Um. The love, the thoughtfulness, the intentionality, the heart. Like I felt it every step, which is why I was so happy to keep chitchatting with you because I was like, this is a real one right here. This is real. You know, it's happening between us and I, I think that's the special

Hecate: 1:33:55

That was my goal. Yeah. When I started

Alisa: 1:33:56

That was really special.

Hecate: 1:33:58

the podcast. Yeah. Thank you. And thank you. Well, like, yeah, it, it also, it relies entirely on someone like being willing to show up and be real with me. So thank you for your, you're a real one!

Alisa: 1:34:09

Truly, anytime And if you ever wanna have like, continued discussions really about anything that comes up around like healing and survivorship or whatever. Um, just let me know. I'm super happy to be in conversation with you whenever.

Hecate: 1:34:23

I would absolutely love that and thank you so much. Yeah, yeah,

Alisa: 1:34:26

For sure. Awesome. Alright,

Hecate: 1:34:27

Thank you so much.

Alisa: 1:34:28

Enjoy the rest of your weekend!

Hecate: 1:34:29

You too. And, and have a beautiful, um, I think today is the last day of Passover, so I hope you have a beautiful last day of Passover.

Alisa: 1:34:36

Thank you so much.

Hecate: 1:34:37

Yeah. And have a a beautiful day. Beautiful rest of your weekend. And thank you. Bye.

Alisa: 1:34:42

Thank you. Bye-bye.

Hecate: 1:34:44

Thank you so much for listening. Please check episode notes, there you'll find links to Alisa's incredible book, her website, and her social media. I strongly recommend reading her book and I hope you'll go show her some love and appreciation. Episode notes is also where you can find all my links, so you can check out my website, follow me on social media, subscribe on YouTube, and catch me live on Twitch. I want to remind everyone that with the disruption and changes we've been seeing with social media platforms, this is a good time to make sure you're following creators, organizers, educators, artists, and activists on other platforms in case they are forced to move elsewhere, and so you can have access to anything they might be producing that's being censored by social media. We need to stick together and stay connected. I especially encourage you to support your favorite creators on platforms like Patreon and Substack. If you didn't know, it's free to follow someone on Patreon if you can't afford a subscription. Shout out to all the Patrons that made today's episode possible. Thank you, Emerald, Meadow, Urja, Kathleen, Sedonka, Bryony, and The Gob. Thank you all so much for your support. None of this would be possible without you, and I appreciate y'all so very much. Urja, I'm actually in Twitch chat with you like, right now. So, hi! Today's episode was edited and produced by me, Hecate. The music is Your Heart is a Muscle the Size of Your Fist, used with the permission of Ramshackle Glory. Thank you again for listening. This has been Finding OK. Destroy the Kyriarchy, and keep working towards collective liberation. Take care of yourself and take care of each other.

Ramshackle Glory: 1:36:35

Your heart is a muscle the size of your fist. Keep on loving. Keep on fighting. And hold on and hold on. Hold on for your life. Your heart is a muscle the size of your fist. Keep on loving. Keep on fighting. And hold on. And hold on. Hold on for your life.

Hecate: 1:37:27

Came in like a wrecking ball. That meant the copy of her...fuck. XD